Honing with tape question

So I've been working on the basics of honing for a little while and thought I'd try something new last night -- honing a blade with tape on the spine.

I've read enough about the pros and cons, I understand how the tape changes the geometry of the bevel, and so forth.

I started with a single layer of some very thin tape on the spine, with a razor in basically NOS/unhoned condition. I like to use a Naniwa 1k to set the bevel, then I use a BBW/coticule while diluting the slurry every twenty laps or so, and then finish on a CF.

Anyway, here's the stupid part -- about ten or twenty laps into the BBW, I noticed that I had completely "honed away" the layer of tape. There was still tape on the spine and on the blade itself, but where the spine contacts the hone, the tape was basically removed in one thin line.

And that makes a lot of sense too, because tape is a lot softer than metal and honing a piece of tape against a stone that is made to cut metal is going to result in the tape being removed very quickly, right?

So how the heck do you hone something with tape on the spine? And by that I mean, how do you hone without removing the tape entirely while you are honing? Special brand of extra-tough tape? Lifting the spine slightly to remove pressure from it while honing? I'm just guessing, but now that I've tried it the wrong way, I'm thoroughly confused!:(

Thanks.

1. use 3m electrical tape, honest there is a difference
2. NEVER lift the spine, EVER even if you read that BS at B&B, don't do it :roflmao (sorry that was the stupidest thing I ever read about honing)
3. Change the tape after each level of honing, ie: after the bevel set after the sharpening and before the finisher...

4. During the bevel set it might take a change of tape depending on the stone...

Either you're using incredibly cr@ppy tape, or your using way too much pressure. I've honed through tape on the bevel setters, but never on a coticule, even when I was using it to set a bevel! Have a look at both the tape & the technique. One is most likely at fault.

Well, I wasn't using electrical tape, so maybe that's my first problem. And I wasn't replacing the tape after every level of honing, so the tape that I had in place just got worn away after a while.

Is there anything other than electrical tape that will work? I'm concerned about the thickness of electrical tape and also the fact that electrical tape seems to be highly variable in thickness depending on how hard you stretch it while you are pasting it down. At least when I use electrical tape on something, it seems like you can make it much thinner by stretching it while applying it. Doesn't that make it dicey to use for something requiring a precise thickness like honing? Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.

Use the 3M as Glen suggested, stretch the tape just enough so that there are no wrinkles, bubbles, etc. Change the tape after the one K or more often if there is a lot of work to be done. Once you've gotten past the 1k you shouldnt have to change the tape.

When i use elec tape,a gently pull it off the roll without stretching it,and cut it to length with a knife or some other sharp tool. And the tape takes a pretty good beating, but like glen said,it will have to be changed from time to time.

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Originally Posted by JeffE

Is there anything other than electrical tape that will work? I'm concerned about the thickness of electrical tape and also the fact that electrical tape seems to be highly variable in thickness depending on how hard you stretch it while you are pasting it down.

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Given the number that use 3m tape, I don't think the change in bevel angle is significant.

Also just don't stretch it more than enough to remove bubbles.

I used it just lately on the 1k for bevel set and it did not wear through. But I changed it on each step anyway.

There are lots of ways to tackle a problem, but here's my view.

The brand of electrical tape doesn't matter too much, but it has to be electrical tape. It may matter to the likes of Glen, who hone as a profession, but not to me.

I always try to avoid any stretching. I even cut off the tape that gets stretched by unrolling what I need. I also smooth the tape onto the spine, rather than stretch it.

I too also change the tape at the end of each stage, & sometimes during the bevel set.

I used it on all razors (3M one layer) for the first year I honed. I was afraid I'd cause too much spine wear if I didn't use it. Then the fact that Lynn didn't use it on anything but special cases bothered me so I experimented with not using tape. Now I only use it on Damascus blades or razors with decorated spines. Maybe on a razor with a deep chip until it is removed. I've only worn through tape on one razor and that was removing a deep chip with a 325 diamond plate. Nothing wrong with using tape. Tim Zowada uses it on his high end razors. I just got out of the habit and found it wasn't necessary for me.

Edit; Aside from the fact that 3M is high quality it is made in Minneapolis, MN. I would rather help someone in MN keep a job than someone in Beijing. YMMV

Thanks, guys, I will try again tonight -- good advice!

I usually start with 1 layer for hollows or 3 layers for wedges, removing a layer until I end up with 1 layer on the 1k stone.
After 1k I change the tape and move on but I do not change any more.
I mo when you go up the grits the tape wear is minimal (may be this varies depending on which stones are used I do not know).

I have also tried the Duck Tape electrical and I find it is pretty much identical to 3M stuff but cheaper.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I usually start with 1 layer for hollows or 3 layers for wedges, removing a layer until I end up with 1 layer on the 1k stone.
After 1k I change the tape and move on but I do not change any more.
I mo when you go up the grits the tape wear is minimal (may be this varies depending on which stones are used I do not know).

I have also tried the Duck Tape electrical and I find it is pretty much identical to 3M stuff but cheaper.

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And what is it that you are accomplishing with this???

It sounds like this process:


http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ged-blade.html

Honing a damaged blade - Straight Razor Place Wiki

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Originally Posted by Lynn

And what is it that you are accomplishing with this???

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Originally Posted by Lynn

And what is it that you are accomplishing with this???

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Going from 3 layers of tape to 1 on a wedge?
It's my personal preference how to do it.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Going from 3 layers of tape to 1 on a wedge?
It's my personal preference how to do it.

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It would have to be........

Personally, I think that reducing the layers of tape as you move through the hones is a complete waste of time & you're merely kidding yourself that the work is being achieved faster. You still have to remove the same amount of steel.

However, if a chap finds the whole process more acceptable in their mind to do it this way, that's up to them.

Is someone going to edit the Wiki to the effect that the process is a good way to pretend it's all happening faster than it really is?

We could recycle this one!

''This statement and the following Advantages/Disadvantages has been proved to be an opinion, not a fact, there are to many variables to deterimine if this is always true..''

:D

This is great info guys...Jeff: thanks for posting

I use 3M tape and usually cut a piece (~4" long), lay it on the table (glue side up), position the spine over the middle of the tape and bring it down onto the glued side. Once stuck, I lift the tape/blade combo and finish the taping around the spine. This way, there's no stretching of the tape.

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Originally Posted by ben.mid

Personally, I think that reducing the layers of tape as you move through the hones is a complete waste of time & you're merely kidding yourself that the work is being achieved faster. You still have to remove the same amount of steel.

However, if a chap finds the whole process more acceptable in their mind to do it this way, that's up to them.

Is someone going to edit the Wiki to the effect that the process is a good way to pretend it's all happening faster than it really is?

We could recycle this one!

''This statement and the following Advantages/Disadvantages has been proved to be an opinion, not a fact, there are to many variables to deterimine if this is always true..''

:D

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Your mixing two different processes here BTW...

Stefan has his way of doing things on wedges

The Wiki was taken and Wikified from an old thread of mine about fixing Damaged blades..

Slart assumed that was what Stefan was taking about, which he wasn't ....

Hence two totally different things here...

Sorry Glen, I was in mischievous mood. :D

Though I do find the that by starting with three layers, you may eliminate the chip faster, but you're then left with the problem of removing all the material to re-form the bevel. Just doesn't make sense to me.

this thread should be a "sticky"

The first time I taped a razor's spine for honing, I used Scotch tape, being ignorant of what was being used by others how hones will eat right through it :) There was some unusual honewear leftover.

I don't hone much, but when I have a wedge with a chip in it, I will raise the spine off the hone just a little, or use a couple of layers of tape, to restore a straight edge on the razor before laying it back down flat on the spine. It does seem to save some time, but I guess I'd have to restore hundreds or thousands of wedges both ways to be able to say that with more confidence. Whatever works I guess

When you have an edge to repair, you can use a layer of tap and fix the chipping. 3 layers is certainly personal preference. The easiest way to fix the edge would be to do circles on a 220 or 1K stone holding the edge at 45 degrees which makes it easier to re-establish the bevel.

Tape can also be used to preserve a nice spine with an example being a Damascus razor and again one layer is sufficient. You can put 50 layers on if that is your preference and see what kind of micro bevel you can get. Go for it!!

When honing a wedge razor, particularly with a lot of uneven wear on the spine and definitely when that wear is not the same on both sides, all tape does is cover the uneven spine. You still end up with multiple bevels unless you work the metal from both the spine and the edge without the tape. You can try to build up the spine with multiple layers of tape, but it will take few before you end up with enough to get to an even spine. Then as you reduce the layers down, you will be re-working with the uneven or worn spine again.

Tape can also be used to create a secondary bevel if that is your preference with the pros and cons having been discussed ad-nauseum.

Have fun.

Lynn

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

this thread should be a "sticky"

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I know you can do better than that.:)

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Originally Posted by Bill S

I know you can do better than that.:)

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At least now he has an applicable avatar.

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

At least now he has an applicable avatar.

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The ones Lee self deletes are usually the best ones. :D

Um, not to add gas to any raging fires here, but if you start taking away layers of tape WHILE honing, aren't you also going to end up slightly changing the angle at which the blade meets the hone while honing? It seems like this would be a big problem since any change in the angle would mean that not all of the bevel ends up sitting squarely on the hone surface while you are honing. Anyway, I'm going to stick with the electrical tape idea, and I appreciate all of the help here again!

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Originally Posted by JeffE

Um, not to add gas to any raging fires here, but if you start taking away layers of tape WHILE honing, aren't you also going to end up slightly changing the angle at which the blade meets the hone while honing?

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That's the nail you've hit there! That's what bugs me about it.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The ones Lee self deletes are usually the best ones. :D

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This time I think he's just masking the truth.:)

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Originally Posted by Bill S

This time I think he's just masking the truth.:)

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Hmmmm. I wonder what kind of tape he uses for that?