Belgian Confusion.....

Hey guys,

I have been loosely following these discussions on the belgian coticules, while I haven't been in the loop for some time on straight razors, as other edged tools have taken most of my time, I still enjoy honing a razor every now and then. ;)

Anyways, I honed a TI last night with my nearly worn out Norton 4K/8K, then proceded to give it a few laps on a belgian. Result?, bad edge. I got out the loup, there were some much coarser scatches along the whole edge. Before you ask, the stone came from perfectedge.com.... it a small trapezoid bout stone.

I have always thought that the belgian and every other natural stone on earth was coarser than a synthetic, this confirms it for me. I realize that natural stones cut differently, so you can't really compare them to synthetics, but I haven't seen where they are good for razors yet. Has anyone had a similiar experience, or am I just kookoo for coco puffs? :)

Thanks,
Lee

If you were using a yellow Belgian (coticule), I can't imagine how this happened unless the stone is defective. Lynn considers these stones to somewhere around 12K, and it seems that way to me too. I can't understand how a stone that fine could have made coarse scratches.

I would be more inclined to suspect the Norton. From my experience with now 5 TIs, they're great right out of the box. You should have assessed the blade before going to Norton. I found the most a new TI needed was a few refreshing swipes with a Swaty, and they became super sharp. Umping right into the Norton was not a good idea.

Make sure that the edges of the Belgian are rounded over and that you have the yellow stone, not the blue one.

Razor is an old one I honed several months ago, it never did shave right and had been sitting on the shelf.... I did a 1/3 on the Norton feather light then did about 15 on the yellow belgian ultra light. Now that I think about it, I did use my nagura on the belgian, maybe that little SOB had some stray grit in it. Back to the drawing board........

The Belgian Coticule has large particle size, but due to their shape (shaped like football, and that's European football ;) ), they produce fine stiration marks, somewhere ~8000-12000 Grit...

Nenad

I like the Belgian coticules but I don't really consider them a finishing stone. The more I use ceramics the more I like them. Everyone seems to be on the Norton 4K/8K and Coticule bandwagon and few seem to like the good old-fashioned barber hones but I'm one of them. These were used to keep razors shaving sharp for a long, long time before Norton abrasives was around and the thing I know that creates a finer edge than the old ceramic barber hones is maybe the newer Spyderco ceramic hones.

I've had acceptable results using all of the different coticule stones I own but I've had better results with the Honemaster barber hone, Fernsler's barber hone and yes, even the Spyderco hones, which aren't given nearly as much credit as they deserve for their ability to create an outstanding cutting edge.

It's easy to get a good understanding of the different scratch patterns and their results when honing by spending time honing old-fashioned Sheffield wedges that typically have a large and very visible bevel. The extra, extra, extra, paper-thin, hollow grinds are easy to hone and shave delightully but it can be hard to see the bevel since it's just a hair's breadth most times. The longer honed surfaces give you a good chance to observe the quality of the surface finish left by your hones more easily. I like to hold them up to a bright light and move them around to see the reflections from all angles.

How this fits into this Belgian Coticule discussion is that I've had enough feedback visually to agree with the original poster that the finish of a Belgian coticule is definitely not all that fine, in my opinion.

I like the coticule. It's just not the holy grail of razor hones to me.

Mr. Williams, I always thought that the Syderco was maybe at best a 5 or 6k stone and would be a step down from the norton 8k:shrug: ? Please forgive me for butt'in in, I'm new and still trying to learn.

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Originally Posted by PapaBull

I like the Belgian coticules but I don't really consider them a finishing stone. The more I use ceramics the more I like them. Everyone seems to be on the Norton 4K/8K and Coticule bandwagon and few seem to like the good old-fashioned barber hones but I'm one of them. These were used to keep razors shaving sharp for a long, long time before Norton abrasives was around and the thing I know that creates a finer edge than the old ceramic barber hones is maybe the newer Spyderco ceramic hones.

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I'm with you when it comes to hones, and I started using a superfine and fine Spyderco on your recommendation. I also own an Idahone ceramic, which is supposed to be 12K (so far I haven't seen a difference).

My motivation is to be able to hone dry. The ceramics work well, but they seem to develope a dark smudge (probably metal) very quickly, and I need to clean them frequenly. Have you found the same thing?

You had a terrific study a few months back on your site (straightedgerazors.com) where you showed microscope shots of an edge as you progreesed in honing it. Have you done any more of that?

Joe, I plan on doing another study here real soon. The black smudges are from the steel and clean off very well with scouring powder.

Kim, I've heard all kinds of grit ratings for the Spyderco. I think the grit size of stones is only the roughest guideline and is most valuable when comparing one stone to another in the same line by the same manuacturer... i.e., they tell you which are finer than others. The "grit" on different stones from different manufacturers and different countries and different materials seems to be different, feel different and provide different results............ and results are the only thing that really matters. So I've pretty well tossed out any "rules" and just go with what works..... I had assumed the "low" grit count on the Spyderco would inadequate for a really nice edge but when I did a study at 200 power, it turned out the finest scratch pattern was delivered by the Spyerco Ultra-Fine and that was compared to a Honemaster, a three-line Swaty, a Belgian Coticule, 12,000+ grit Chinese polishing stone and a Lakeside hone.

Not surprisingly, the razors also come off the Spyderco with an ultra-keen edge that more easily cuts free-standing hair than off any other hone. The result is that I've had razors shave beautifully right off the Spyderco. Go figure.

Thanks :) I had looked at the Spyderco a while back and never got around to buying one. Mainly because of my inexperiece and because I did not think any one on this site was really that much into them. There price is very reasonable and know that I know there are honemeisters using them I'll feel more confident about trying one of those babies out. Thanks for the info. Kim

I've also become very curious about'em. Since I'm also expecting a coticule to come in soon, it should be a good time for a comparison test, if I can scrape up the cash for one.

I don't know about the Spyderco ceramics, but I have tryed final honing on two "finishing" hones after the Norton 8K, and I am not realy sure that my Lithide and Itsapeach (well, this might be) are fine finishing hones. Now, I am talking this only in relation to the N8K. I have managed to put the scratch marks back on my mirror 8K edge dry honong on the Lithide. I believe they are ~6000 grit... Well, some of the barber hones are ceramic too...

Belgian Coticule stone has been standard for razor honing for centuries. That's what the razors are honed in both Thieres Issard and DOVO factories. I think Barber hones are developed in the States due to dificulty in obtaining the Coticule there. Also, the straigh razor book from 1940's advices against further refining with pastes. Anyways, my thought is that Norton 8000 side is very suited to put final finish on the razor, and until I get my Coticule (I hope soon) that is what I'll be using.

Nenad

If you look on page 2 of the downloadable catalog on this site you will see that the Norton 8K is listed at 3 microns, this is equivalent to a Japanese 5 or 6K. I too have noticed Swaty's etc. leaving scratches behind in Norton 8K finishes, this does not mean it won't make a good edge it just means it's not as fine.

http://www.nortonstones.com/


PB, do you have a link that has some info about the Spyderco hones?

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Originally Posted by superfly

I am not realy sure that my Lithide and Itsapeach (well, this might be) are fine finishing hones. Now, I am talking this only in relation to the N8K. I have managed to put the scratch marks back on my mirror 8K edge dry honong on the Lithide. I believe they are ~6000 grit... Well, some of the barber hones are ceramic too...

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I own both of those, and they're definitely finishing hones if you keep them clean and flat. By comparison at 200x, they both have finer scratch patterns than the Norton. So, unless something was wrong, I can't imaginr them roughing up an 8K finish.

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Belgian Coticule stone has been standard for razor honing for centuries. That's what the razors are honed in both Thieres Issard and DOVO factories. I think Barber hones are developed in the States due to dificulty in obtaining the Coticule there. Also, the straigh razor book from 1940's advices against further refining with pastes. Anyways, my thought is that Norton 8000 side is very suited to put final finish on the razor, and until I get my Coticule (I hope soon) that is what I'll be using.

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I have had no problem finding vintage coticules older than my barber hones, so I don't think barber hones were developed because of a shortage, but rather the price. It could simply be that they were intended for a different purpose. Mostly barbers used them for touching up a razor while working, not serious honing. I had an old time barber who was Italian and used to carry one in his pocket for use at any time. I got the ipression he did the same thing when he was in Italy.

BTW, at least one of tose companies finishes their razors on an Escher stone using kerosene.

Nenad[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by pikappa167

If you look on page 2 of the downloadable catalog on this site you will see that the Norton 8K is listed at 3 microns, this is equivalent to a Japanese 5 or 6K. I too have noticed Swaty's etc. leaving scratches behind in Norton 8K finishes, this does not mean it won't make a good edge it just means it's not as fine.

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Actually, when you're talking about the scale used for diamond paste, an 8K comes out 3 microns. Under 200x magnification the Swaty has a finer scratch pattern than an 8K Norton. It looks like it could be much finer than 10K.

Just a caution on the Spyderco hones. The ceramic is very hard and when I used them new, and this also applies to the Idahone, they chipped the edges of the blade. What happens is that there are "high" spots (particles) that need to be knocked down before you hone. Be sure to lap the hone and also to do the same to the sharp edges. Lapping and rounding the edges of any hone is standard practice for me now.
I believe it was Kelly that also had similar knowledge of the Spyderco's.


Just my two cents.:)

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Originally Posted by kimw

Thanks :) I had looked at the Spyderco a while back and never got around to buying one. Mainly because of my inexperiece and because I did not think any one on this site was really that much into them. There price is very reasonable and know that I know there are honemeisters using them I'll feel more confident about trying one of those babies out. Thanks for the info. Kim

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Joe,
Thiers Issard confirmed to me that they at least use a Belgian yellow along with "naptha" which after some research equates to, well, kerosene. They felt it clears the swarf better leaving less chance of larger particles chipping or deflecting the ultra fine edge.

I have a few Eschers as well and they seem to have a much higher concentration of garnets than my Belgians, both vintage and new.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I have a few Eschers as well and they seem to have a much higher concentration of garnets than my Belgians, both vintage and new.

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The Eschers are waterstones, right?

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I own both of those, and they're definitely finishing hones if you keep them clean and flat. By comparison at 200x, they both have finer scratch patterns than the Norton. So, unless something was wrong, I can't imaginr them roughing up an 8K finish.

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Joe, I use them dry, and they are lapped, well, reasonably well... Not realy glass smooth. Can you tell me which is the finer one, Lithide or Itsapeech, and your method of honing on them, water, later, No. of strokes after N8K?

Thanx,
Nenad

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Originally Posted by superfly

Joe, I use them dry, and they are lapped, well, reasonably well... Not realy glass smooth. Can you tell me which is the finer one, Lithide or Itsapeech, and your method of honing on them, water, later, No. of strokes after N8K?

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I no longer use the Norton, except when I have a batch of razors to do, because dry honing is much more convenient.

Without a lot of lapping you an get the Lithide glass smooth. It's hard to tell the grit difference or the likely value, but the Itsapeech seems smoother. I note that both of them fill up pretty quickly and require frequent cleaning. Sometimes you may trap a large particle, which can scratch.

With a single razor, I do everything dry. With a really dull one I set up the edge on a 1200 diamond hone so that it looks straight and even. I'll then use a fine Spyderco or coarser barber hone (e.g. Ahconite, cushion strop) to finish the edge until it passes the thumbnail test (also take a quick look under a microscope at 100x). Then I move on to the Spyderco ultrafine and hone, while using the thumb test until I see no further improvement in sharpness. Then, I move on to a finishing barber hone, until testing shows no further improvement in sharpness. I prefer the Honemaster to the Itsapeech. At that point I can stop, but I have moved on to a coticule or pasted strops (.5 and .25), depending on how much time I have and how hard I feel like working. Lately I haven't had a lot of time.

The number of strokes varies with each razor. I don't keep track, because I'm reacting to the razor. When I use the thumb test, I nominally count 10 round trips between tests (it can increase or decrease depending on how fast things are changing). One thing I can tell you is that once I come off the diamond I have a lot fewer swipes than in your typical pyramids that go up and down between grits. I don't think I do more than 30-40 total round trips if I don't go past the finishing hone.

Joe, thank you for the info. I will try some of your methods using my barber hones...

thanx,
Nenad

Joe,
The Eschers are waterstones. They are naturally quarried stones from Germany but the original source is long gone. When they turn up on eBay they make the price of a Belgian yellow look like chump change <g>. Originally they would have come with asmaller piece of the Escher material to create a slurry with.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Joe,
The Eschers are waterstones. They are naturally quarried stones from Germany but the original source is long gone. When they turn up on eBay they make the price of a Belgian yellow look like chump change <g>. Originally they would have come with asmaller piece of the Escher material to create a slurry with.

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I haven't been able to get one of those Eschers, but I do have a Droescher water hone, which is quite good. It has one of those rubbing stones.