Thread: Belgian Confusion.....

Hey guys,

I have been loosely following these discussions on the belgian coticules, while I haven't been in the loop for some time on straight razors, as other edged tools have taken most of my time, I still enjoy honing a razor every now and then.

Anyways, I honed a TI last night with my nearly worn out Norton 4K/8K, then proceded to give it a few laps on a belgian. Result?, bad edge. I got out the loup, there were some much coarser scatches along the whole edge. Before you ask, the stone came from perfectedge.com.... it a small trapezoid bout stone.

I have always thought that the belgian and every other natural stone on earth was coarser than a synthetic, this confirms it for me. I realize that natural stones cut differently, so you can't really compare them to synthetics, but I haven't seen where they are good for razors yet. Has anyone had a similiar experience, or am I just kookoo for coco puffs?

Thanks,
Lee

If you were using a yellow Belgian (coticule), I can't imagine how this happened unless the stone is defective. Lynn considers these stones to somewhere around 12K, and it seems that way to me too. I can't understand how a stone that fine could have made coarse scratches.

I would be more inclined to suspect the Norton. From my experience with now 5 TIs, they're great right out of the box. You should have assessed the blade before going to Norton. I found the most a new TI needed was a few refreshing swipes with a Swaty, and they became super sharp. Umping right into the Norton was not a good idea.

Make sure that the edges of the Belgian are rounded over and that you have the yellow stone, not the blue one.

Razor is an old one I honed several months ago, it never did shave right and had been sitting on the shelf.... I did a 1/3 on the Norton feather light then did about 15 on the yellow belgian ultra light. Now that I think about it, I did use my nagura on the belgian, maybe that little SOB had some stray grit in it. Back to the drawing board........

The Belgian Coticule has large particle size, but due to their shape (shaped like football, and that's European football ), they produce fine stiration marks, somewhere ~8000-12000 Grit...

Nenad

I like the Belgian coticules but I don't really consider them a finishing stone. The more I use ceramics the more I like them. Everyone seems to be on the Norton 4K/8K and Coticule bandwagon and few seem to like the good old-fashioned barber hones but I'm one of them. These were used to keep razors shaving sharp for a long, long time before Norton abrasives was around and the thing I know that creates a finer edge than the old ceramic barber hones is maybe the newer Spyderco ceramic hones.

I've had acceptable results using all of the different coticule stones I own but I've had better results with the Honemaster barber hone, Fernsler's barber hone and yes, even the Spyderco hones, which aren't given nearly as much credit as they deserve for their ability to create an outstanding cutting edge.

It's easy to get a good understanding of the different scratch patterns and their results when honing by spending time honing old-fashioned Sheffield wedges that typically have a large and very visible bevel. The extra, extra, extra, paper-thin, hollow grinds are easy to hone and shave delightully but it can be hard to see the bevel since it's just a hair's breadth most times. The longer honed surfaces give you a good chance to observe the quality of the surface finish left by your hones more easily. I like to hold them up to a bright light and move them around to see the reflections from all angles.

How this fits into this Belgian Coticule discussion is that I've had enough feedback visually to agree with the original poster that the finish of a Belgian coticule is definitely not all that fine, in my opinion.

I like the coticule. It's just not the holy grail of razor hones to me.

Mr. Williams, I always thought that the Syderco was maybe at best a 5 or 6k stone and would be a step down from the norton 8k ? Please forgive me for butt'in in, I'm new and still trying to learn.

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I like the Belgian coticules but I don't really consider them a finishing stone. The more I use ceramics the more I like them. Everyone seems to be on the Norton 4K/8K and Coticule bandwagon and few seem to like the good old-fashioned barber hones but I'm one of them. These were used to keep razors shaving sharp for a long, long time before Norton abrasives was around and the thing I know that creates a finer edge than the old ceramic barber hones is maybe the newer Spyderco ceramic hones.

I'm with you when it comes to hones, and I started using a superfine and fine Spyderco on your recommendation. I also own an Idahone ceramic, which is supposed to be 12K (so far I haven't seen a difference).

My motivation is to be able to hone dry. The ceramics work well, but they seem to develope a dark smudge (probably metal) very quickly, and I need to clean them frequenly. Have you found the same thing?

You had a terrific study a few months back on your site (straightedgerazors.com) where you showed microscope shots of an edge as you progreesed in honing it. Have you done any more of that?

Joe, I plan on doing another study here real soon. The black smudges are from the steel and clean off very well with scouring powder.

Kim, I've heard all kinds of grit ratings for the Spyderco. I think the grit size of stones is only the roughest guideline and is most valuable when comparing one stone to another in the same line by the same manuacturer... i.e., they tell you which are finer than others. The "grit" on different stones from different manufacturers and different countries and different materials seems to be different, feel different and provide different results............ and results are the only thing that really matters. So I've pretty well tossed out any "rules" and just go with what works..... I had assumed the "low" grit count on the Spyderco would inadequate for a really nice edge but when I did a study at 200 power, it turned out the finest scratch pattern was delivered by the Spyerco Ultra-Fine and that was compared to a Honemaster, a three-line Swaty, a Belgian Coticule, 12,000+ grit Chinese polishing stone and a Lakeside hone.

Not surprisingly, the razors also come off the Spyderco with an ultra-keen edge that more easily cuts free-standing hair than off any other hone. The result is that I've had razors shave beautifully right off the Spyderco. Go figure.

Thanks I had looked at the Spyderco a while back and never got around to buying one. Mainly because of my inexperiece and because I did not think any one on this site was really that much into them. There price is very reasonable and know that I know there are honemeisters using them I'll feel more confident about trying one of those babies out. Thanks for the info. Kim