Thread: Belgian Confusion.....

I've also become very curious about'em. Since I'm also expecting a coticule to come in soon, it should be a good time for a comparison test, if I can scrape up the cash for one.

I don't know about the Spyderco ceramics, but I have tryed final honing on two "finishing" hones after the Norton 8K, and I am not realy sure that my Lithide and Itsapeach (well, this might be) are fine finishing hones. Now, I am talking this only in relation to the N8K. I have managed to put the scratch marks back on my mirror 8K edge dry honong on the Lithide. I believe they are ~6000 grit... Well, some of the barber hones are ceramic too...

Belgian Coticule stone has been standard for razor honing for centuries. That's what the razors are honed in both Thieres Issard and DOVO factories. I think Barber hones are developed in the States due to dificulty in obtaining the Coticule there. Also, the straigh razor book from 1940's advices against further refining with pastes. Anyways, my thought is that Norton 8000 side is very suited to put final finish on the razor, and until I get my Coticule (I hope soon) that is what I'll be using.

Nenad

If you look on page 2 of the downloadable catalog on this site you will see that the Norton 8K is listed at 3 microns, this is equivalent to a Japanese 5 or 6K. I too have noticed Swaty's etc. leaving scratches behind in Norton 8K finishes, this does not mean it won't make a good edge it just means it's not as fine.

http://www.nortonstones.com/


PB, do you have a link that has some info about the Spyderco hones?

Originally Posted by superfly

I am not realy sure that my Lithide and Itsapeach (well, this might be) are fine finishing hones. Now, I am talking this only in relation to the N8K. I have managed to put the scratch marks back on my mirror 8K edge dry honong on the Lithide. I believe they are ~6000 grit... Well, some of the barber hones are ceramic too...

I own both of those, and they're definitely finishing hones if you keep them clean and flat. By comparison at 200x, they both have finer scratch patterns than the Norton. So, unless something was wrong, I can't imaginr them roughing up an 8K finish.

Belgian Coticule stone has been standard for razor honing for centuries. That's what the razors are honed in both Thieres Issard and DOVO factories. I think Barber hones are developed in the States due to dificulty in obtaining the Coticule there. Also, the straigh razor book from 1940's advices against further refining with pastes. Anyways, my thought is that Norton 8000 side is very suited to put final finish on the razor, and until I get my Coticule (I hope soon) that is what I'll be using.

I have had no problem finding vintage coticules older than my barber hones, so I don't think barber hones were developed because of a shortage, but rather the price. It could simply be that they were intended for a different purpose. Mostly barbers used them for touching up a razor while working, not serious honing. I had an old time barber who was Italian and used to carry one in his pocket for use at any time. I got the ipression he did the same thing when he was in Italy.

BTW, at least one of tose companies finishes their razors on an Escher stone using kerosene.

Nenad[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by pikappa167

If you look on page 2 of the downloadable catalog on this site you will see that the Norton 8K is listed at 3 microns, this is equivalent to a Japanese 5 or 6K. I too have noticed Swaty's etc. leaving scratches behind in Norton 8K finishes, this does not mean it won't make a good edge it just means it's not as fine.

Actually, when you're talking about the scale used for diamond paste, an 8K comes out 3 microns. Under 200x magnification the Swaty has a finer scratch pattern than an 8K Norton. It looks like it could be much finer than 10K.

Just a caution on the Spyderco hones. The ceramic is very hard and when I used them new, and this also applies to the Idahone, they chipped the edges of the blade. What happens is that there are "high" spots (particles) that need to be knocked down before you hone. Be sure to lap the hone and also to do the same to the sharp edges. Lapping and rounding the edges of any hone is standard practice for me now.
I believe it was Kelly that also had similar knowledge of the Spyderco's.


Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by kimw

Thanks I had looked at the Spyderco a while back and never got around to buying one. Mainly because of my inexperiece and because I did not think any one on this site was really that much into them. There price is very reasonable and know that I know there are honemeisters using them I'll feel more confident about trying one of those babies out. Thanks for the info. Kim

Joe,
Thiers Issard confirmed to me that they at least use a Belgian yellow along with "naptha" which after some research equates to, well, kerosene. They felt it clears the swarf better leaving less chance of larger particles chipping or deflecting the ultra fine edge.

I have a few Eschers as well and they seem to have a much higher concentration of garnets than my Belgians, both vintage and new.

Tony

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I have a few Eschers as well and they seem to have a much higher concentration of garnets than my Belgians, both vintage and new.

The Eschers are waterstones, right?

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I own both of those, and they're definitely finishing hones if you keep them clean and flat. By comparison at 200x, they both have finer scratch patterns than the Norton. So, unless something was wrong, I can't imaginr them roughing up an 8K finish.

Joe, I use them dry, and they are lapped, well, reasonably well... Not realy glass smooth. Can you tell me which is the finer one, Lithide or Itsapeech, and your method of honing on them, water, later, No. of strokes after N8K?

Thanx,
Nenad

Originally Posted by superfly

Joe, I use them dry, and they are lapped, well, reasonably well... Not realy glass smooth. Can you tell me which is the finer one, Lithide or Itsapeech, and your method of honing on them, water, later, No. of strokes after N8K?

I no longer use the Norton, except when I have a batch of razors to do, because dry honing is much more convenient.

Without a lot of lapping you an get the Lithide glass smooth. It's hard to tell the grit difference or the likely value, but the Itsapeech seems smoother. I note that both of them fill up pretty quickly and require frequent cleaning. Sometimes you may trap a large particle, which can scratch.

With a single razor, I do everything dry. With a really dull one I set up the edge on a 1200 diamond hone so that it looks straight and even. I'll then use a fine Spyderco or coarser barber hone (e.g. Ahconite, cushion strop) to finish the edge until it passes the thumbnail test (also take a quick look under a microscope at 100x). Then I move on to the Spyderco ultrafine and hone, while using the thumb test until I see no further improvement in sharpness. Then, I move on to a finishing barber hone, until testing shows no further improvement in sharpness. I prefer the Honemaster to the Itsapeech. At that point I can stop, but I have moved on to a coticule or pasted strops (.5 and .25), depending on how much time I have and how hard I feel like working. Lately I haven't had a lot of time.

The number of strokes varies with each razor. I don't keep track, because I'm reacting to the razor. When I use the thumb test, I nominally count 10 round trips between tests (it can increase or decrease depending on how fast things are changing). One thing I can tell you is that once I come off the diamond I have a lot fewer swipes than in your typical pyramids that go up and down between grits. I don't think I do more than 30-40 total round trips if I don't go past the finishing hone.