Honing at the high end grits

So I've been trying to hone this Dovo Razor. I feel like I have a good system down, but obviously not perfect.

The problem I'm having is that I can get it to pop hairs at the 4k level. Then I move onto the 8k level. After that I strop on linen, then leather. At BEST I can get the razor to "peel" a hair in the HHT and usually only on one part of the razor.

In addition, the quality of the shave just isn't good enough when compared to a Shave Ready razor. It still pulls and tugs just a bit, and the area under my chin just can't handle it.

So my question is this: Where do I go from here? Back to the 4 k or the 8k?

Keep in mind I've gone back to the 8k a few times and I always get to the same level or sharpness (or lack thereof). I just don't know if maybe I'm not doing enough on the 8k, or possibly too much. Or, if I went back to the 4k if I'd be doing more harm than good.

Any suggestions?

I usually don't do more than 15 to 20 strokes on a Norton or Naniwa Superstone 8k. Actually I often only do 10.

How many are you doing on the 8K?

Though you say that it pops hairs on the 4k, are you certain the bevel is fully set? Did anyone else ever hone this razor or are you the first? Are you confident in your stropping? Have you lapped your hones?

There is no harm in going back to the 4K unless you are doing it wrong and screwing up the edge or spine. Other than that the only harm is steel loss, which should be minimal.

For me, if a razor tugs, it means I didn't do what I needed to on my Naniwa 5k, or maybe I didn't get the bevel fully set. 1k should pop arm hairs off when you use a normal shaving stroke (proper angle, minimal pressure, edge on the skin). If you know your bevel can do that, then it's likely whatever hone you go to after that.

My first thought when you say the blade is showing an uneven amount of sharpness across the length is it needs more work on the lower grit to even up the bevel.

Honing is a 4 step process

It really doesn't matter how those steps are taken, or what they are taken with, you have to climb the honing ladder in this order...

Step 1. Set the bevel, it has to be sharp from toe to heel, not sorta sharp, not pretty much there, if the bevel isn't set correctly you are just wasting time... the edge should be about 90% there before you leave this first step

Step 2. Sharpen the razor, the edge is going to get within 98% of as sharp as it can possibly get in this step

Step 3. Polish the edge, the edge is going to get very smooth now and barely any sharper, but this is where most of the shaving comfort comes from.. The edge should be at 99% now

Step 4. The Finisher, could be a high grit stone, could be a paste, could be a good stropping, or a combination of all these things, but this step is all personal.. and the last 1% is right here

If you don't take all 4 steps, in that order, you will not make it to a shave ready edge...If you try and skip a step, or rush a step you will fall...


Of course this is JMHO of how honing works :D

+1 on all the advice already given.

I really think that the key part of honing is the bevel set. If you dont get that right you'll end up with a very shiny but very dull razor.

As Dylan says, make sure you can shave arm hair at all points along the blade. You shouldnt have to use lots of pressure to do this, it should just shave the hairs away with no fuss at all and if you cant do this, stay on the 1k until you can.

If you're doing lots of strokes on the 1k and not getting anywhere, or there is an area of the blade, or the whole blade, thats still dull then you need to change your stroke or approach slightly, or add or remove tape or something. Dont keep doing what you're doing because it wont come right on its own! But the end result should still be that you can easily shave arm hairs off that stone.

Once you can, all the other stones progress pretty easily and the rest of the honing kinda falls into place!

Good luck and keep us posted!

+1 Glens' post says it all! Spot on!


R

Thanks to all the responses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Though you say that it pops hairs on the 4k, are you certain the bevel is fully set? Did anyone else ever hone this razor or are you the first? Are you confident in your stropping? Have you lapped your hones?

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As for the bevel, I feel fairly confident that it's set. At the 1k I was able to cut arm hair along all points of the blade with ease, against skin, using minimal pressure.

At the 4k I was able to pop hairs just above the skin.

I've lapped all the hones when I first started. And after a couple times of looping through the rotation I went back and re-lapped the 4k/8k since that's the one I've always gone back to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I usually don't do more than 15 to 20 strokes on a Norton or Naniwa Superstone 8k. Actually I often only do 10.

How many are you doing on the 8K?.

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A lot more. I remember reading somewhere that some guy knew he had to do a minimum of 40 on the 8k. Maybe I'm doing too much?




It seems like I might be doing too much on the 8k since all of the requirements for "sharpness" on the previous stones seems to be met.

I'll give it some more love tonight and give you guys an update.


Also as a side note, I'm having to use a Rolling X stroke for this blade. I feel like I've gotten the hang of it, but obviously haven't mastered it. This could also explain the uneveness in the sharpness on the blade, but I would think that the center of the blade should still be an appropriate level of sharp to shave with. This is why I'm thinking it's a matter of overhoning on the 8k.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Good advices given.

I find that when I want to dial in a razor on the 8K or another finishing hones and when it is close, but just not there that 3-5 X strokes followed by stropping and testing a couple times will usually bring it around if all the previous pre-requisites are met. Sometimes just 10 strokes on CrOx or .5 diamond spray or Cerium will do the job as well.

Have fun,

Lynn

You mentioned in the first post that the blade was sharp in only one place, have you checked the blade to see if it is warped and are you keeping an even contact of blade to stone with an equal pressure(possibly rocking the blade)?

I guess what you are experiencing is the lerning curve.
I used to (and sometimes still) do not get an edge to be as perfect as I want it to, without a clue what happened.
Nowadays I just start over, or have the skillset to determine what to do to fix it.

I found out that confidence in what you do is crucial.
You have got to feel comfortable.
This is something that comes with time and practice.
So what will probably be the best advice for you is:
Keep at it, practice more and be confident about your ability to learn.

To add another advice to these (great ones) already given,
try to determine where the problem lies. What happens when you hit the 8k after the 4k? Does the edge get more smooth, do arm hairs shave more easily? Is HHT possible?
And is this smoothenes, or keenes comprimised after you strop?

This way you might be able to make out what you have to work on;
honing skills or stropping skills.

And you should really try some diamond spray on felt. I recommend 1µm,
because of its cutting strength is able to mask little imperfections that have occured while honing.
Maybe this will do the trick until your skill has improved

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

You mentioned in the first post that the blade was sharp in only one place, have you checked the blade to see if it is warped and are you keeping an even contact of blade to stone with an equal pressure(possibly rocking the blade)?

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I should clarify. When the blade was sharp only in one place; it will only peel a hair during the HHT in one place. At all previous levels (1k and 4k) the entire blade performed uniformly in a passing fashion.

The blade doesn't appear to have a smile, but when doing the magic marker test, the toe and heel don't get much love; on both sides of the razor. I'm therefore using rolling X's; so yes, there is some rocking of the blade occuring because of the stroke.

I guess it's all part of the learning curve as I would at least expect the middle of the blade to be acceptably sharp. I wouls also expect the ends needing more work which will happen with extended practice of the rolling x stroke.

I'll keep at it and maybe try some Crox on an extra strop I have. Does it matter if I put it on the linen or leather side of the extra strop? Is one better than the other?

Where to apply your honing compound is a thing of personal preference.
You can even try putting it on newspaper (with a bit of cushion) if you want to keep your spare strop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tmac123

I should clarify. When the blade was sharp only in one place; it will only peel a hair during the HHT in one place. At all previous levels (1k and 4k) the entire blade performed uniformly in a passing fashion.

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Peeling the hair usually denotes low keeness for me. Close but no cigar :)
Maybe the 1-4k stage is passing due to a "toothy" edge rather than a sharp one.
Also, one thing you may need to consider is something Nun2sharp said, your pressure. Are you reducing your pressure as you reach the finishing stages ? In the endgame you could wreck an edge if you bear down on it a bit too hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honing is a 4 step process

It really doesn't matter how those steps are taken, or what they are taken with, you have to climb the honing ladder in this order...

Step 1. Set the bevel, it has to be sharp from toe to heel, not sorta sharp, not pretty much there, if the bevel isn't set correctly you are just wasting time... the edge should be about 90% there before you leave this first step

Step 2. Sharpen the razor, the edge is going to get within 98% of as sharp as it can possibly get in this step

Step 3. Polish the edge, the edge is going to get very smooth now and barely any sharper, but this is where most of the shaving comfort comes from.. The edge should be at 99% now

Step 4. The Finisher, could be a high grit stone, could be a paste, could be a good stropping, or a combination of all these things, but this step is all personal.. and the last 1% is right here

If you don't take all 4 steps, in that order, you will not make it to a shave ready edge...If you try and skip a step, or rush a step you will fall...


Of course this is JMHO of how honing works :D

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Glen,

Best synopsis of what the process steps are and what the goals of the steps should be I've heard so far - thanks.

David

The hardest thing for me to learn was that 5 - 10 light X strokes actually does something at a straight razor level that it would never do for another type of cutting edge - say a knife for instance.

I had a couple of razors that just weren't up to snuff. 5 X strokes on my 8k followed by 5 X strokes on my 12k and they shaved incredible.

I think I have read from Lynn and others to start at the highest grit first and see if you can get the razor shave ready. You can alway take more metal off but - well you know the rest of the saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

You mentioned in the first post that the blade was sharp in only one place, have you checked the blade to see if it is warped and are you keeping an even contact of blade to stone with an equal pressure(possibly rocking the blade)?

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My thoughts as a beginner at honing razors is to take all the above advice. Use a marker pen on the edge to see if you're getting an even hone line.


Mick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Peeling the hair usually denotes low keeness for me. Close but no cigar :)
Maybe the 1-4k stage is passing due to a "toothy" edge rather than a sharp one.
Also, one thing you may need to consider is something Nun2sharp said, your pressure. Are you reducing your pressure as you reach the finishing stages ? In the endgame you could wreck an edge if you bear down on it a bit too hard.

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After Lynn's comment about only needing possibly 5-15 strokes on the 8k, I hit the 15 stroke mark.

I also made sure that the pressure was extremely light. The problem I may be having is with pressure and the rolling X. I think I'm doing ok, but sometimes when I roll at the end to hit the toe, I'm not even sure if I'm hitting the edge properly. And I'm almost positive I'm hitting the heel with too much pressure, but that part isn't as necessary as the toe for how I shave.

Overall, I think my technique is good enough on a razor with no need for rolling. The fact that the toe and heel need that roll is probably what's screwing me up the worst.

I guess I just need more practice. Also, using the Crox on my extra strop my help a ton. I guess I'll find somewhere to pick some up at and start with it on the linen, then move to the leather if need be.

Just a double check, but Crox is something you can really only buy online right? I wouldn't think hardware stores would carry it.

+1 on the long list of quality answers above...

Do review and perhaps try a "pyramid" honing method.
There are a couple of things well covered by others
above but "overhoning" can do "odd" things to an edge
and a "pyramid" honing technique does not seem to
overhone.... and was the first "recipe" that gave me
a consistent good shave. In the process it let me feel the changes
that some call feedback and that in turn got me the best
edge.

+1 on the bevel setting, this is key and make sure spine and edge are flat on the stone before coming off the 1 k or what ever bevel setting method adopted. Keeping the edge and spine flat throughout the stroke with minimal/zero pressure is paramount. I've read, re read and followed a ton of Lynn on the wiki and this has stood me in good stead.
Remember we're always chasing down a wire edge, so the only reliable test is your face, patience is required here with minimal time on the stone. A pyramid system for me seems to avoid over honing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

...try to determine where the problem lies. What happens when you hit the 8k after the 4k? Does the edge get more smooth, do arm hairs shave more easily? Is HHT possible?
And is this smoothenes, or keenes comprimised after you strop?

This way you might be able to make out what you have to work on;
honing skills or stropping skills.

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I've acquired 4 blades recently, each of which has varying amounts of smile. That meant I've been working that same stroke (and it's not easy). After spending untold time on a large swayback wedge, the stroke got a little better, but the main prob for me was my stropping. I made a 3" latigo strop, and noticed the toe is never as sharp as any other part of the edge. 'Tried cleaning, oiling, hand rubbing, bottle rubbing - nothing would take the bow out of the strop. I read that the 3" strops are much more prone to getting a wave in one direction or another. So I made one 2.5" wide, and it went from chopping the course chest hair to chopping the super fine head hair.

I also just finished bringing in a difficult blade. Middle to heel cut course hair, but not the fine hair. Back to the canvas (30 more), then leather (80 more). The fine hair would then either slit or chop - progress. Going back multiple times to the canvas & then leather has brought in several razors now. To verify I had a wavy strop, I laid a flat edge on the strop while holding the handle - like I was stropping. There was plenty of room (light showing) at the toe & heel - on a flat/straight blade.

We'll get there. Being a noob aint easy, but perseverance or stupidity (in my case, too dumb to know when to quit) will get us there.

My Kanayama strop drops away slightly at the edges too. It's not a problem. You can adjust your stroke on the strop as you would on a hone. I think there are as many non flat strops in existence as there are warped razors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deckard

+1 on the bevel setting, this is key and make sure spine and edge are flat on the stone before coming off the 1 k or what ever bevel setting method adopted. Keeping the edge and spine flat throughout the stroke with minimal/zero pressure is paramount..

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If you're doing a rolling X, isn't this pretty much impossible? You have to lift the blade to get the toe and heel.

Also, I've never actually done the HHT on a razor before hitting the strop. Maybe I'll try it and see if maybe my stropping is what's doing more harm than good.

I'll also probably try the pyramids and maybe spend more time on the canvas/stropping.

Thanks so much for all the feedback so far. I'll keep you guys posted on any changes or progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tmac123

If you're doing a rolling X, isn't this pretty much impossible? You have to lift the blade to get the toe and heel.

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Yes, of course but spine & edge must still contact tho not always flat.

This may be a foolish question, but have you considered you may be over-honing and developing a wire edge? That would explain everything you've said. You may be over-sharpening on the 4k and then getting a wire-edge on the 8k.

Also, putting chromium oxide on the linen strop is sufficient. You don't need it on the finish leather side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tmac123

If you're doing a rolling X, isn't this pretty much impossible? You have to lift the blade to get the toe and heel.

Also, I've never actually done the HHT on a razor before hitting the strop. Maybe I'll try it and see if maybe my stropping is what's doing more harm than good.

I'll also probably try the pyramids and maybe spend more time on the canvas/stropping.

Thanks so much for all the feedback so far. I'll keep you guys posted on any changes or progress.

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With my razors I have only used rolling x pattern once, I don't know what the correct technique is but in my case the roll was very subtle. In fact I would say it is more of a pressure thing and the edge dosen't leave the stone surface:shrug:.
Anyway on that occassion this did the trick, I was also sweeping in an arc like you would for a smiler.
Generally I haven't found the need to use rolling x if I get the spine and edge parallel and both flat on the stone. Horor of horrors I've even been known to deliberatley hone an uneven spine down to achieve this.
There will occassionaly be awkward blades that require a little finessing of these principles from time to time.