Bevel setting mystery?

Since last posting my honing woes, I have been applying the good advice received here.

I've watched Lynn's and others' training videos trying to reset the bevel using a 1k Naniwa on my T-I razor.

I also obtained an easier razor for practice -- something without a smile shape to the blade.

I'm having absolutely no luck at all.

I've tried light pressure, more pressure, x-strokes, etc etc. I've spent tried 10 laps, 20 laps, 50 laps, 100 laps, and the blades get just the slightest bit sharper, but no more. Never hair popping. I'd say "hair combing" is more like what happens.

To see if I've actually accomplished anything, I've then progressed through the stones: the 5k, 8k, 12k, pasted paddle strop, and then the hanging strop -- then the shave test: still, as always, feels like pulling hair out by the handful.

I just cannot get my blade sharp, and I think it starts at the bevel setting.

Using a marker along the bevel, it would appear the whole bevel is getting the treatment, but still, the blade doesn't sharpen.

Is there a better/ more fool proof stone I might buy to re set the bevel?

Should I try and use the 325 DMT to REALLY reset the bevel?

I'm beyond mystified by this black art of razor honing.

Perhaps there's a special chant or prayer one utters before beginning.

Thanks in advance for any clues to this clueless honer!

Are you doing the TNT, TPT of any of that as you go along ? Using magnification at all ? IME the naniwa 1k works really well to set a bevel. You should be seeing swarf developing as you're doing your circles. Lynn told me 20 circles on each side with firm pressure followed by 20 x strokes IIRC. Repeat if necessary. If it won't do a good TNT it is necessary. Once it does a good TNT do another 10 x strokes and then see if it will shave arm hair against the skin.

If it won't more x strokes until it will. The pressure thing is hard to quantify in words. I was lucky and had someone who new the drill that lived close enough, 30 miles one way, to show me. Let me go over repeatedly to watch and learn. If there is a member in your neck of the woods who knows and could show you that would be a good thing.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/get-t...a-meet-up.html

That would be great if you could make this... this coming Sunday...

what is the exact name of the blade. Will better if you post picture in case it is possible.
then we could help you more.

Hi fellows,

Thanks for your responses already. Wow!

Ok, GSS', wish i could get to Yakima. Geez, maybe I should check flights...

Jimmy', I don't know how to do the TNT and TPT, but I was told of a test where you sort of make a fist, and then touch the blade, moving gently in a lateral direction to the edge on the meat of the hand -- the part the thumb comes out of. (How's that for accurate anatomical description!?). It does seem to get just a bit sharper, but not much, by that test. Then when trying to shave arm hair with the blade on the skin -- it does it just a bit.

I do see some of the metal on the stone as I hone, so there's evidence of friction on metal. At least a bit.

The blades I'm working on are a T-I carbonsong c135, full hollow grind 5/8ths, and the old classified section acquisition that says Hercules, and on the other side, "The Eugene Berlinghaus co., Cincinnati, O., Made in Germany." This one is also full hollow grind, looks to be either a 4/8 or a very well worn 5 / 8 razor.

Oh let me add, about magnification.

I just looked at the T I with a 10x loupe, and can see the secondary bevel I put on there, by taping the spine.

I also have a 20x loupe, but when I get in close enough to focus, there's no light. I'm in the shaddow. Maybe in daylight I'll have better luck.

So, it would appear I did somthing to / for this blade with the sharpening I did yesterday.

I just checked again, and it will shave hair on my arm, but when it comes to shaving my face, it's nothing like the Revisor that just came, shave ready, last week. That one shaves, and shaves painlessly.

Brenton, check out 'sharpness tests explained' in the SRP Wiki here. Don't even worry about the HHT until you get to the point where you can hone one of your razors to shave well for you.

I was just searching for the TPT and TNT

If the entire edge will shave hair on your arm, you probably have the bevel set now. Congratulations!

Now you just need to work it through the higher grits without damaging the edge.

I think the strategic part of honing is simply moving up in higher and higher grit.

The tactical part is developing a repeatable stroke. Something tells me you might be missing this part.

Brenton - have you tried some gentle back-honing laps (ie spine first) at the commencement of each new stone? It sometimes helps if you are prone to use too much pressure and/or too many strokes and produce a slight burr. Four or five round laps might help.

Regards,
Neil

Gentlemen,

Thank you for these follow ups.

I hadn't tried back honing as a matter of course. I did it only once, after one effort to set the bevel where I most certainly used too much down force. Like 5 pounds of it. (out of frustration) :banghead:

After that little experiment (read: tantrum), I was sure some backhoning was needed.

Thanks for the strategic comment. If I can use the ability to cut hair withthe full length of the blade, that test might work for me, cause I've been trying the thumb pad test with the razors I've been working on, and comparing that to my brand spankin' new Revisor, which is sharp sharp sharp. -- I can't feel a difference between 'em on the TPT!

Look into this microscope its 12 bucks Illuminated Microscope - RadioShack.com
that will help being able to see at higher magnification

Drat. Can't order it to Canada.

Perhaps it's available in Canada....

Neil,

How many laps back honing would you suggest?

And, so I'm sure I have this right, when finished with, for e.g., the 5k hone, I do the back honing on the next one up, 8k, before proceeding with regular honing. Is that right?

Thanks

I had the same problem you did with a Simmons Razor.

It had a chip and a double frown so I had to bread knife it. :( I was hoping I'd never have to do this to a razor, but there was just no way around it.

Anyways, long story short, after bread knifing it took me a couple days of work to start to get an edge on it.

I worked on the 220 mainly, then moved to the 1k when it sort of passed TNT, the 1k did the rest of the work on setting the bevel and developing a good edge.

Just keep at it!

Wow, Thor, that sounds . . . X-treme!

I hope it doesn't come to that, but I'm interested you were able to recover it by such extreme measures as to go back to a 220, then forward.

I think AfDavis is right about noting that I don't have a consistent stroke. I was working on my practice blade last night, thought I was good on the 1000, so moved on up, 5k, 8k, 12k, stropped it 60 or 80 times, then test shave: tearing the hair out feeling again.

If theres' good news in this, though, it's that I do think I was making progress on the 1k, and I did notice a different TPT feel as I went to finer hones. Just too bad my beard didn't feel it too.

Yup, it was pretty easy. It just takes a while.

I'm sure the honemeisters here have had plenty of experience to know how much pressure and time it will take to restore a blade that's been bread knifed, but this is one of my first.

In the end I just made sure to take plenty of breaks, stayed calm, and just watched TV or listened to music while working on the blade. I kept checking the edge often by touch and loupe often and constantly rotated the stone.

Once I felt the edge actually feeling like it could cut into something with some pressure I moved up to the 1k.

As much as you want to go to the higher grits, don't. Not until you know you can cut hair at the 1k level. You're only wasting time otherwise.

Keeping doing straight X strokes on the 1K until you can pop your leg hair mid length, only then move up in grit. I recently bought a really nice razor in an Antique shop, Ivory scales with owls on them (Awesome), it took forever to get the bevel set. I didn't count laps but I did the 1K for an hour until I could cut my leg hair, I then did more to make the hair pop.

At that point I was so tired I went to bed.:cry:

Your 1k hone should always be more worn than your other hones.

About a year ago I changed my honing techniques and wrote about it here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post430074 At the time it was experimental for me but has become my normal honing routine now.

The thing to remember is if you are setting a bevel on a vintage razor that has been kicking around for who knows how many years and what conditions there is a high chance the edge is way far from sharp. At this point you should forget about lap counts unless you need lots practice counting. Develop a rhythm and do circles based in time. 15, 30, 60, 102 seconds. I use an oven timer that counts down in seconds. Start on the low end w/ 15 seconds per side followed by 10 x strokes and look for edge improvements. If you can't notice any work up in time per side. The more time needed, the more pressure followed by ~ 10 seconds or 20 circles with light pressure before the x strokes. Don't move off the bevel setter hone until the blade cuts arm hairs cleanly and effortlessly. This is where the difference between a good edge and a great edge is made.

Good luck

edit: Just found this thread where I posted about circles. See post #11 http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...me-help-2.html

I'm no expert, but one of the things I've noticed on razors I have great difficulty sharpening is that they have a slight warp to the blade, so that part of the blade gets sharp and other parts stay without an edge. This is very visible under magnification, if you look at the width of the edge being formed. I assume you have already checked this kind of problem, but I'll venture a suggestion here in case you haven't. It always pays to not overlook the obvious.

Another possibility is that the razor you're working on is a type of hard steel, such as "manganese" or stainless. These take a lot more strokes to accomplish an edge.

Good luck on this, and let us know what the solution was.