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I really need to ask. How in the hell can someone shave off a Coticule or a 12K stone? I use to hone to a point past a 30K and still after about 7 shaves it is time for a touch up. I have a very good finishing stone now and even now I only get about 9 shaves before I really feel an unacceptable drop in performance and need to do a touch-up. I know everyone has different objectives but I have tried shaving off a 16K Shapton and it was a horrible shave. I must be missing something.
Later,
Richard
Richard as you note yourself something wrong .Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
By your estimation after coticule you should be getting at least 60 shaves then blade will get duller.
as after 30k your edge lasts 7 shaves.
1. i think you have problem with honing the blade.
you like sharpest edge out there available and as a result edge just doesn't last longer.
in the over hand your shaving techniques may need change too.
which one first i am not sure.
try send 1 of your razors to pro's to hone.
get edge back and check it out. see how it looks like and feels like.
this may help.
shaving try scything motion could help.
gl
+1 on scything
I've found that shaving at a lower angle (facilitated by scything) allows me to go MUCH longer between touch-ups.
For whatever it's worth, paying more attention to bevel-setting also helped me a lot in that department, as I was overly fixated on finishing stones for a looong time. :D
Also check your stropping and use the linen side now and again
Sham has some good points. Coming at it from a different perspective, when I first got into wet shaving it was with the DEs. A friend who introduced me to the forums told me the 'best' DE blade was a Feather. So I bought a hundred and found them to be very good.
As time went on I tried other DE blades and was surprised at how different some of them shaved. I was even more surprised to find some users who said they didn't like the Gillette Swede, my favorite blade at the time. When I got a pack of the highly recommended Derby blades I was appalled at how they shaved. I thought they were terrible. Time passed and I returned to the Derby and found that in an early Super Speed they gave a very smooth and close shave. No irritation or weepers which I sometimes encountered with the Feather blades in my merkur slant.
As for shaving and honing straight razors, I have the Shapton Pros, up to and including the 30k, but prefer the shave I get from a good coticule, or even better, an Escher. So it goes back to different strokes for different folks. I don't know if my windy post has anything to do with your situation but thought I would throw it out there as something to consider. :)
I'll start by pointing out that millions of men shaved with edges off of just a coticule or barber hones for their entire lives.
I lean toward thinking that either you are in a "Princess And The Pea" shaving state or else you are being heavy handed with your honing. I suggest that you get either a coticule or a barber hone and maintain one razor with just that for a while. That will help you either improve your honing, or lower your shaving standards, or improve your shaving technique.
You are not missing anything...Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
The ultimate test is the shave test.... on your face.
Yesterday I tried to shave off a couple days of whiskers
and resorted to a seven razor presidential shave. For
some reason each razor in my rotation shaved
terribly and after a small patch it was time for
a fresh blade.
Today was vastly better... but I did spend much
more time on my "latherin" with more care at stropping.
Tinker with one thing at a time but shave prep
and lathering is the bit I too often short cut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
You should try a razor switch with somebody that knows how to hone...
They send you one of their known razors to hone, you send them one of yers to hone..
You both hone them and send them back to each other, both of you might learn a trick or two..
Kinda fun too... :D
As the others already mentioned, if you can't shave off of 12K, you are doing something wrong. If your basic edge is not ok, then going to !@K or even 30K is not going to help things. That would be like have a crappy foundation of your house, but making up for it with some very expensive decorative woodwork. If the foundation sucks, nothing will wimprove it except new foundations.
8K is all you need for a comfortable shave. Many people here have used 8K as their last step for years.
Once I even shaved with an edge directly from my 325 grit DMT plate. It was a bit scratchy but the shave itself was pretty good because the bevel was perfect. going higher in grit makes it smoother. There is also an increase in sharpness, but really not that dramatic.
From your description, I think that either your bevels are not in order, or you mess up while stropping or shaving.
Hi,
As a honing newbie I cannot get a smooth shave off my Naniwa 12k; I always have to go to the pastes after the hones.
This indicates to me that my honing skills are not there yet :)
So, I have started an intensive quest to improve ; the goal - to have a good shave straight off the 8k !!
Have fun !
Best regards
Russ
Indians and arrows...I think Jimmy once said that the best weapon is useless in the hands of someone without the knowledge and experience to use it...
I can get a great shave off a BBW, forget the coticule for a second.
Glen once said something along the lines that a 1K provides 90% of an edge, a 4K or so another 5%, the 8K another 4% and then a 12K+ the remaining few % with the exception of small decimals for increments such as the 16 or 30Ks etc. YMMV and all steel is different, but you can appreciate the general picture. I certainly agree.
So the difference between a 12K and a 30K in terms of sharpness once the bevel is properly set, is fairly minimal...it is certainly not over double as one may be inclined to think
When I started honing I hated the edges off my 16k Shapton. I always used pastes afterwards to improve the edge but things still werent quite right.
With practice I found that actually the edges off just the 16k were pretty good, so I tried dropping down to 8k, as I'd heard the pro's say that this would be a good indicator of how good your edge was. Man, that felt like a horrible edge!
But then I practiced some more and found that actually the 8k edge was really great as well.
Around this time I started adding in some natural finishers and got myself a set of Naniwas to complement the Shaptons. I played around with these hones, trying different strokes, different razors, slurries and so on.
With even more practice I managed to get a pretty decent shave off the 3k Naniwa, again after being prompted to try it by reading posts by the more experienced guys here.
I've found that I get my best edges by using synthetic hones and then switching to a natural finisher, and then going right to my daily strop without using any pastes. Thats what works for me and what I like, but others may find they prefer synthetic hones or pastes.
What this all taught me is that high end finishers and pastes will only leave you with a nice feeling edge if you have done the right work in the low grits. What Scipio says about the 1k providing 90% of the edge is correct IME.
You'll more than likely find that with practice you start to like your 12k edges, then your 8k edges and maybe even lower than that, and that your 30k edges are sharper than you ever thought possible!
That is also why imo a pasted strop is a crutch, and will hinder progress in the hands of a newbie. They round the bevel dues to the sag, and thus make the edge sharper. If the edge already had perfect bevels, the strop would not make any difference.
First learn to shave off an 8K stone. Unless you can do that, there is no point in investing more money in higher grit thinks.
I got into straight shaving with the express purpose of being able to save money. The whole hone thing to me was something I wanted to avoid. I initially thought purchasing high grit hones of greater and greater cost was just plain silly. To this day I haven't really changed my mind too much. I rub my finger along the hone and every hone above 8K feels exactly the same. EXACTLY. So the idea here is that my wet sensitive finger can not tell the difference in feel between an 8K and a 12K but somehow it makes a huge difference to the bevel edge. Yea, right?
Okay, so with this slightly skewed view I thought about what the primary difference is between my uncomforatable 8K honing and another guys 30K honing. I realized the primary difference was smoothness and time.
I was immediately able to achieve better results by working on using more strokes than thought appropriate using the 8K. Say, 100 or 200 strokes. If you think about doing say, 20 strokes on 8K and then 20 on 12K, and then 20 on 16K, and then 20 on 30K, well, you have 80 strokes already. All of these were done on stones that are glass smooth to the touch of a wet finger.
And while we are discussing this analogy. Have you ever thought about rubbing the pad of your index finger down a wet 8K hone for 100 strokes? Try it. After your done ask yourself this question. How much honing/polishing action did I just complete on my index finger, considering it doesn't even feel like I did anything. What do I expect would occur to a piece of steel if my own skin feels no difference in 100 strokes?
So, I suggest, it's not so much your skill level as simply using a different technique. Try letting the 8K dry a little while honing. Try coming back to the 8K for a few more sessions, and more importantly, give the 8K as much honing time as you would all your other hones, together.
So I just bought a Naniwa12k and don't have alot of money right now.Question..can I get by with my current hone,and how many strokes should I do ? I just had both my blades pro honed.My dovo special is fine but I honed for the first time on my best quality,and I'm pretty sure I've dulled it.I just do four complete passes.But it's dull and I can't afford another stone.:(
I get very comfortable shaves off my Chinese 12k stone. As someone else said, the vast majority of people over the ages would have shaved with an edge off a barbers hone. I think that we should be carful about not being too precious.
for razor maintenance of already honed and shave ready razor yes, number of strokes depends, but I would start with very few and increase until the edge is back where it should be. If youlett he edge go past certain point 12k only will not work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightblade
It looks like you dulled your razor due to poor technique, to be able to hone a blade from bevel set to finish you will need more hones. This read might help youQuote:
I just had both my blades pro honed.My dovo special is fine but I honed for the first time on my best quality,and I'm pretty sure I've dulled it.I just do four complete passes.But it's dull and I can't afford another stone.:(
Beginner's Guide to Honing - Straight Razor Place Wiki
@ OP, you should be able to get great shaves off a 12k stone.
Shapton 30k has some tricks that can be applied for better edge, as mentioned above its very possible you are doing more strokes than needed and as a result the edge can't last.
This is right where I was going to go. I had a thread I started called "Disappearing Edge" I had one great shave with a razor following my honing and then the next was horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio
Turns out, it was not the razor but the honer of the razor (me). I never had an edge in the first place, because I was not setting the bevel properly in the first place.
You don't say how you are setting the bevel and how you are testing it, but IMHO I suspect that the 30k hone is polishing an unprepared edge.
I shave just fine off of a 12k now that I have the bevel set process down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao - me too! Let's check my checking account balance, shall we?
Thanks for the replies guys. I passed out at the keyboard last night so I couldn't read your replies till this morning.
I have received razors honed by many people that I am sure are very proficient at honing and to my standards there has only been one gentleman that sent me razors that only needed a "slight" touch-up and that was Robert Williams. I have sent razors out that I have sold and almost all have written back and expressed just how they loved the edge and asking how to duplicate it. I make sure that my bevel is very well set off a 1K and that it will easily cut hair before moving on.
I use scything, the angle of the blade is almost touching my skin (which I think is possible because of a very keen edge), and my prep is very good by most standards. I just have a bit of hair on each side of my chin that will defeat any razor that is not very, very sharp. I have used DE razors in the past and most blades last no more than 3 shaves and that is pushing it.
So..that leaves the "Princess and the pea" theory and that is going to take some real thought on my part. I will get out my Coticule and evaluate the shaves.
Thanks,
Richard
I agree with Bruno on the pasted strop being a crutch in the hands of a newbie. That is not to say that it is not a useful adjunct to the hones in the hand of an expert honer. I was taught to test shave at the 8k level to ascertain whether my honing was adequate to move on to a higher grit. I have made using the stones followed by the untreated strop the default method I use to get my razors shave ready. It has taken me many, many razors and a couple of years of doing it to get to a point where I feel that I know what I am doing with these things. For the first year + I went through the motions and sometimes I won and other times I lost without really knowing why. FWIW I have found that the 1961 barber manual excerpt that I frequently link to here is the method I rely on once I have set the bevel. Like any skill it takes a lot of practice to become proficient IME.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I didn't read all the posts, Sorry, Try a barber hone before you shave, 3-5 passes on it should keep your blade shave ready or in your case, a mini touch up... As far as not being able to shave off a 12k, it's your honing. Most can shave off an 8k, and you can definitely shave off a Coticule...
Any hone after 8k is just gravy.....
Richard, The Coticule is not your "Normal hone" IMHO...It's hard enough learning to hone properly, let alone, learning your Coticule. Each is different and slurry must be used in order to use if properly. I'd suggest a Norton 4/8k or Naniwa's 5 and 8k to learn.
Once you've mastered them, then play around with the Coticule...This is just my opinion....
Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
If you are getting comfortable shaves then why bother,,,
Sounds like yours is a finish (Smooth) issue not a sharp issue... I rather like your story, as a matter of fact... Too many people like to blame the sharp, and profess the greatness of certain stones...I have argued this for a long while, the whole time trying to explain sharp is easy, and not a part of the equation above 8k (given a properly honed edge)... Too many people have proved this with the low grits shaves, the "Sharp" is there at a quite low level..
Yours is the opposite, where you like the smoothness of the 30k (psst so do I) but this is not a sharp issue, you just like that finish... Why fight it, just accept that and go with it...
Great thread!
Summary of some very key points here:
-Like Glen says: Why fight it if you like a 12K+ polish on a razor, then by all means stay with it.
-1K @ bevel setting is the MOST important part of honing.
-If Sham (hi_bud_gl), Glen (gssixgun), or some of the other veterans make a recommendation on honing, I usually listen.
-No matter how perfectly a blade is honed, if the prep work isn't done, the shave will suffer.
-If it works for you, don't "fix" it. Just don't become stagnant in your ways so that you don't continue to learn...
Scott
And it also leaves stropping to be evaluated. Also, there was a gentleman on these forums who swore he had a beard of iron and for months he kept trying to shave with a straight with problems similar to yours if I recollect. He finally tried shaving with an edge that was sharpened at between a 6k and 8k level and was finally pleased with his results.Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
I believe that was Josh Earl
This is one of the reasons we always say to start with a stone like an 8K or so and become competent with that before you move on to higher ones. Many here have shaved off a 4K and got reasonable results. When I started out all I had was the Norton 4K/8K and I was very happy with it. Even now I use either the Coticule or the Escher as my finisher even though I have others.
As far as how many shaves you get from a razor I find it depends on the razor. I have some I've been using for years without even needing a touch-up. In general 15-20 shaves and I can detect the comfort begins to deteriorate ever so slightly even though it still gives a BBS shave. I guess it depends on how tough a beard you have and how sensitive your face is. My beard is like wire.
And you had to hone uphill both ways, on your knees through the snow...Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
";":rolleyes:
Hmm a Naniwa12K hone...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightblade
I have a Na12K and love it...
Since you have a pro-honed blade try this.
First smoothly and methodically strop the blade.
First 20 on canvas then 30 on leather and see if
that recovers the edge.
Once or twice a month use your 12K hone first with
some circles (20, 5 flip, 5 flip, 5 flip, 5 flip)
then finish with 20 smooth normal honing strokes.
The Naniwa cuts quickly enough that you may
not need to resort to a combo hone like the
Norton 4/8K or the Naniwa 3/8K combo
to tidy up the bevel and edge.
Maintaining the edge on a regular schedule
so you do not get behind in the process can
let you rely on a singe fine hone like your Na12K.
A key is even and smooth hone strokes using consistent pressure.
Light pressure is good.
(20, 5 flip, 5 flip, 5 flip, 5 flip)
Huh?
I'm guessing he means 20 strokes total, 5 on each side before flipping to the other. But I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Yes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
five circles on each side before flipping to the other.
Just a starting point... your hand and razor will differ.
I do like the result of circles, there is little or no risk of
a slap from flipping the razor and circles do just enough
back honing to minimize raising a burr.
Even I figured that one out:idea:;)
Great, thanks alot. I've been dreading this day for along time, although I knew deep within that it would finally come. Now Im going to have to buy a Shapton 30K which will render all my naturals completely useless.
I think Glen hit it on the head. Smoothness is really what I am struggling with. I love the edges off my Asagi and can differentiate the edge using heavy, medium, and light slurry and just plain water so I think it is a case that I am just to dang particular.
To that end thanks everyone!
Man, if the talk about hones comes up you guys are all over it!
OK! OK! I take it then that all of you only use a coticule and shave off that?:D If that is the case I would gladly take all those POS J-Nat finishers off your hands.:p
Thanks for the input I am going to have to see what a coticule will give me, should be interesting.
Take Care,
Richard
Richard,
I do not think you are missing anything. I get good edges off the coticule, better edges off a Thuringian or Escher and even better edges off my Nakayama. When I use a chrom. oxide pasted strop after the hones I can hardly tell the difference between coticule, Escher or Nakayama.
After about 10 shaves I do feel that the performance of the razor starts to diminish. After about 10 shaves I can still shave with it, razor does not yet pull but shaves are slightly less smooth, less comfortable and start taking longer. For me that's the moment to take the razor to the hone again.
So it is all about performance and the moment you feel performance starts getting below par.
I think that most of these guys are right on the money,IMHO. I posted about a month ago that I think I had it,I spent about an hour on my 8k and did each stroke slowly and carefully,then went to the silk strop and finally the leather,it was an epiphany,one of the best shaves in my life,get a grip on the 8k and then worry about the rest.I also like the point about honing your finger for a while,hes right,not much happens,but our fingers aren't made of metal,(at least mine aren't),so going to something as smooth as glass isnt going to add too much over the 8k. Like I said its just IMHO.
Good Luck
Griz
Sorry, but you should never need to hone for an hour on the 8k. I don't think you ever need to do more than 20 strokes on an 8k Norton or Naniwa Superstone.
I should have been clearer,I started out with what was basically a butter knife,after I set the bezel I started with the 4k,8k combo,and had a few mistakes so I had to start over,
the whole thing took me a little over an hour,but I got it to shave,and that's what I was looking for.Also it was a practice blade
Griz
Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
Seems like your pickiness is just testament to a lot of experience and experimenting with different edges and hones. To that end, you sir are taking full advantage of all the best parts of this sport!
I have to confess I was pretty surprised that someone would think shaving off the Naniwa 12K was somehow not a great shave.
For fun, I have worked all the way down to shaving off my Naniwa 3K. I wouldn't recommend it for normal practice, but I got a very good shave when I completed the 3K. I know that's heresy for some, but it's the fact of my experience.
I also have shaved of the Naniwa 8K, and the 12K is usually where I stop. Maybe a CrOx pasted strop, but so far when I do my part setting the bevel with the 1K, I find working up the 3K, 8K, 12K Progression produces a nice edge that gives a fine shave.
I would think that if a person had average skin and an average beard, if they can't shave very comfortably and enjoyably off the Naniwa 12K, they are doing something seriously wrong.