Honing Escapades - A beginner's experience

Hi folks,
The other day, I received my new Veho microscope and decided to take advantage of the opportunity and take my scope for a field test and try out my honing skills with various stones, monitoring the edge each time at the end of a progression.

This is a humble pictorial of what I have so far and wanted to share and get some feedback (good, bad, and the ugly). What I learned from this excercise was that I have a LONG way to go before I can even close to any of the edges that some of you pros get in 30 minutes or less.

Tools:

1. 6/8" Respecto #77
2. 3M electrical tape (thickness=0.007") - one layer on spine
3. Veho-VMS-004 microscope
4. Naniwa 1k
5. Natural Combo BBW/Coticule (quarry?/kind?)
6. Nakayama Kiita
7. Nakayama Asagi
8. CrOx pasted webbed fabric (hanging)
9. Premium IV Bridle strop (hanging)

1. Naniwa 1k (Setting the bevel).
The bevel on the blade was already set, but I wanted to start over for sake of consistency. I used 30 X-strokes with light pressure and proceeded with 50 laps with "no' pressure. It passed HHT (I don't like to do arm hair).
Attachment 52140


2. BBW/Coticule (dilucot method)
After the Naniwa 1k, I raised a light-moderate slurry on this stone and started the dilucot method; (a) 20 laps of "back and forth" each with 6 dilutions (very light pressure on spine), (b) rinsed stone and raised new slurry, (c) 15 laps of X-strokes each with 5 dilutions (no pressure), (d) 50 laps on water alone (no pressure)
Attachment 52137


3. Kiita (w/ tomonagura slurry)
After the Coticule, I raised a slight slurry with the tomonagura on the Kiita Honzan and performed; (a) 20 X-strokes (no pressure) each with 5 dilutions, (b) 50 laps on water alone.
Attachment 52139


4. Asagi
4a. w/ slurry stone
After the Kiita, I raised a slight slurry with the tomonagura on the Asagi Honzan and performed; (a) 20 X-strokes (no pressure) each with 5 dilutions, (b) 50 laps on water alone.

4b. w/ diamond slurry
After the Asagi slurry progression, I rinsed the Asagi (obviously) and raised a slight slurry with the DMT-325 and performed; (a) 20 X-strokes (no pressure) each with 5 dilutions, (b) 50 laps on water alone.
Attachment 52136


5. Leather strop
After the Asagi, took the blade through 50 laps on the leather side of my Premium IV.
Attachment 52141


6. CrOx pasted strop (webbed fabric)
I wanted to see if after the Asagi/leather strop, things got any smoother with CrOx, stayed the same or deteriorated. So, I did 15 light laps on the CrOx pasted strop and to my surprise, the bevel/edge was worse than with the Asagi or strop.
Attachment 52138


I am looking for feedback from members who have many more years of experience than me in this. Am I on the right track? how far am I from the goal of the all elusive "Perfect" edge? Any advice/feedback will be profoundly appreciated.


My next exercise/homework will be to try this with the Y/G Escher I got from JimmyHAD and report back any differences I see or observe (using the same blade). This will not be in the near future, but I am looking at sometime in December or when the edge on this blade needs a little nudge in the right direction :)

It is hard to tell from pictures if you're on the right track or not. How's the shave? That's all that matters.

You have some nice tools to work with, though

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

It is hard to tell from pictures if you're on the right track or not. How's the shave? That's all that matters.

You have some nice tools to work with, though

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Hi Paul,
Tomorrow will be the test (since I already shaved this AM). Having said that, he ideal test should be during each progression (for an objective assessment of edge with each stone and progression), but that will require the luxury of time (and patience).

It does pop hair mid-air...very very sharp. Will it be smooth? I will know tomorrow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

It is hard to tell from pictures if you're on the right track or not. How's the shave? That's all that matters.

You have some nice tools to work with, though

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+1. You're having fun and using your stones so that is way cool. Nice photos BTW. Hope the shave is smooth for you. :tu

My microscope is this:

http://www.greatscopes.com/achi.jpg

I've got the 10x eyepieces in now, which gives me 10x and 30x. I haven't tried the 15x eyepieces yet though, which would give 15x and 45x, obviously.

My high powered microscope is this one:

http://www.nyscopes.com/catalogimages/thumb/100759.jpg

It has 40x-100x-400x. But, I have no external light source, so it's not very useful for looking at edges.

I just started honing my Dovo Special, using the stereo scope to see the results. I got a fair shave from it yesterday, but it's not as smooth as I would like.

The one factor I'm questioning is the tape. I can't touch it up on a hone without taping it, once I've set the bevel with tape on the spine. I don't know how vital the tape is to the edge, or if it's really just for protection of the spine.

So much stuff, so tired after a long drive...

First, the photos are great! I have a fantastic stereomicroscope but I envy those photos.

Ok, new first, because it's important (at least in my head), you might want to consider using the scope to assess your bevel setting and then putting it away for anything but recreational purposes. I think the scope is a fantastic tool for bevel setting, but after that I'm not sure that it is informative regarding the ultimate goal of the quality of the shave.

Second, I realize you are using a slurry stone on your Jap hones, but I'm not sure of there being any benefit to using both a Kiita and an Asagi, especially when you are using the same slurry stone for each. In my opinion, they should be ballpark comparable. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just throwing out the question.

Third, I suppose the scratch pattern your got from the Cro-Ox depends on the quality of the stuff you got. Given what I'd guess you spent on those hones, I would hope you didn't buy cheap Cro-Ox that is not of a fine uniform grade.

Finally, I would suggest that you do the leather stropping after, rather than before, the Cro-Ox stropping.

Finally again, since I thought of another, great job again with the scope photos and have fun experimenting with the toys! Everybody likes (well, at least 7 of us) the high mag honing photos and its always great to see what different hones accomplish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMetatron

My microscope is this:

http://www.greatscopes.com/achi.jpg

I've got the 10x eyepieces in now, which gives me 10x and 30x. I haven't tried the 15x eyepieces yet though, which would give 15x and 45x, obviously.

My high powered microscope is this one:

http://www.nyscopes.com/catalogimages/thumb/100759.jpg

It has 40x-100x-400x. But, I have no external light source, so it's not very useful for looking at edges.

I just started honing my Dovo Special, using the stereo scope to see the results. I got a fair shave from it yesterday, but it's not as smooth as I would like.

The one factor I'm questioning is the tape. I can't touch it up on a hone without taping it, once I've set the bevel with tape on the spine. I don't know how vital the tape is to the edge, or if it's really just for protection of the spine.

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Thank you sir :). The tape, as far as I understand, is mainly for protection of spine. But use of it would create a wider angle on your bevel...the more tapes you use, the wider the angle of the "V" on your bevel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

So much stuff, so tired after a long drive...

First, the photos are great! I have a fantastic stereomicroscope but I envy those photos.

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Thanks Ron . First and foremost: are you now officially in Baltimore? Good luck with the new job. I'd love to know whose lab or which school/dept you're in. Maybe we can hook up when I come to town to visit. I will probably be there on a conference in Feb sometime (haven't decided yet).

Second: I got this scope because it is "maneuverable" and small. I have a great stereoscope that I brought home from lab (after its official retirement) when it got replaced with a newer scope...but, it is big, heavy and has no external light source and no camera hookup (via eyepiece or other)...when I visualize an edge under it, it is truly fantastic and images crisp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Ok, new first, because it's important (at least in my head), you might want to consider using the scope to assess your bevel setting and then putting it away for anything but recreational purposes. I think the scope is a fantastic tool for bevel setting, but after that I'm not sure that it is informative regarding the ultimate goal of the quality of the shave.

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You are dead on ;)...That is exactly the plan...I wanted to see what I am doing and correlate that with the edges I get (or feel). Looking at this under a scope can be time consuming and annoying" if I wanted to use it every time I honed a blade (not that i do it everyday). This is simply an assessment tool for me right now and one that allows me to; (a) dial in my skill at each progression, (b) know what each stone can do (physically at least). Like Paul mentioned, quality of the shave is the ultimate test...I will post about that this morning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Second, I realize you are using a slurry stone on your Jap hones, but I'm not sure of there being any benefit to using both a Kiita and an Asagi, especially when you are using the same slurry stone for each. In my opinion, they should be ballpark comparable. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just throwing out the question.

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Very good point...and it was more a curiosity than anything else...wanted to see the scratch patterns of Kiita compared to Asagi since one is hard and one is supposed to be softer (at least with the stones I have). The slurry stones for each is different, but I have come to really like the diamond slurry edge (from the images at least)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Third, I suppose the scratch pattern your got from the Cro-Ox depends on the quality of the stuff you got. Given what I'd guess you spent on those hones, I would hope you didn't buy cheap Cro-Ox that is not of a fine uniform grade.

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I got this from Don at SRD...I am sure they sell good quality CrOx...Thoughts :thinking:?

I also think that the medium on which the CrOx is used may make a big difference...for example, a CrOx on leather would probably feel and act different than CrOx on webbed fabric (like mine was)...but, not sure of this:shrug:(just a hunch)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Finally, I would suggest that you do the leather stropping after, rather than before, the Cro-Ox stropping.

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That's what I do before shaving anyway...always. it just happened that I decided to include CrOx after I had stropped on leather. After CrOx, the blade went through diamond slurry/leather stropping and is ready for shaving in the AM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Finally again, since I thought of another, great job again with the scope photos and have fun experimenting with the toys! Everybody likes (well, at least 7 of us) the high mag honing photos and its always great to see what different hones accomplish.

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Thanks maestro for the inputs...very, very valuable:tu.

One of my evaluation points has always been to look at the bevel off angle and make sure there was no return reflection. I would be interested in seeing that view.

With that tactic your objective is to try and find the most effective method for eliminating any return reflection from the edge.

One thing I would say that may be taken as criticism .... but isn't really .... why hone on expensive high grit finishers and then go to diamond or chrome-ox ? If I am finishing on a yellow/green Escher or an outstanding coticule I want to feel the results of those stones on my face. Same with the 12k naniwa or the Shapton pro 30k.

Taking it a step further, regarding my personal preferences, I would shave test off of the coticule edge. Then go to the first of those J-nats and shave test off of that and finally to the second J-nat. Rather than honing on them in a progression, one after the other, without assessing the shaving results of each. Different strokes for different folks. :)

I tried the 15X eyepieces in my stereo microscope:

http://www.greatscopes.com/achi.jpg

Which gave me 15x and 45x magnification. But, it wasn't an advantage. The most noticeable difference was field flatness. The straight edge of the razor is only straight from edge to edge of the field of view if it cuts the center of the view. Otherwise, it appears to curve. Annoying. I put the 10x eyepieces back in.

At 30x, the width of the bevel is about one seventh of the entire field of view.

I had a look with my high powered microscope today, at 100x, which I hadn't tried before with an edge I have honed.

The view was good, and the results very similar to what you showed us, Robert. But the problem with such high magnification is that it takes forever to inspect the entire length of each side of the razor.

I think it's most useful in looking for any light reflected off-angle from the edge itself. I could sure see flat spots after the first time I tried honing my razor. The effect was startling. In contrast, an edge with no flat spots is just about invisible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

One thing I would say that may be taken as criticism .... but isn't really .... why hone on expensive high grit finishers and then go to diamond or chrome-ox ? If I am finishing on a yellow/green Escher or an outstanding coticule I want to feel the results of those stones on my face. Same with the 12k naniwa or the Shapton pro 30k.

Taking it a step further, regarding my personal preferences, I would shave test off of the coticule edge. Then go to the first of those J-nats and shave test off of that and finally to the second J-nat. Rather than honing on them in a progression, one after the other, without assessing the shaving results of each. Different strokes for different folks. :)

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I agree Jimmy. From what I saw of the edges from CrOx (after JNat), I would rather shave after JNat directly. I never shave after CrOx anyway (rarely use it)...The exercise for the stone to stone progression was to observe the patterns each stone leaves behind on the edge, not to make this a typical honing regimen. My typical honing regimen would be exactly as you describe...Coti OR JNat and test.

PS: I never take it to the diamond...what I use is to raise slurry on JNat with DMT325 and use dilution to finish the edge.

As for the test shaves, that is absolutely dead on...The shave today was absolutely fabulous...smooth as butter. That was with the edge after JNat (w/ diamond slurry and then water) + stropping. At some point, I will repeat these tests with each stone/abrasive and test shave to correlate the "edge look" with the shave result (if any). I would like to eliminate my bias from this...so maybe after doing this, I will have someone around me shave test and tell me what they think ;).

I really enjoyed the shave today. The edge was with Asagi (with diamond slurry with dilution and finally with water) + stropping on premium IV leather.

Smooth as butter :y. In the next few weeks, I will finish the edge of this blade using each of the stones alone and shave testing.

I really appreciate the microscope photos you guys post. I don't know that much about honing yet, but the pictures help me learn. I think this series was the best one I've seen yet.

I have (and use while honing) scopes at home too, but can't photograph through them. Is there some simple ocular attachment I can use with a fixed-lense camera?

I love doing stuff like this. That must have been a lot of fun, and a learning experience to boot!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMetatron

I tried the 15X eyepieces in my stereo microscope:

I had a look with my high powered microscope today, at 100x, which I hadn't tried before with an edge I have honed.

The view was good, and the results very similar to what you showed us, Robert. But the problem with such high magnification is that it takes forever to inspect the entire length of each side of the razor.

I think it's most useful in looking for any light reflected off-angle from the edge itself. I could sure see flat spots after the first time I tried honing my razor. The effect was startling. In contrast, an edge with no flat spots is just about invisible.

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That is for sure...For myself, I don;t waste time inspecting the edge at ~400X (we've got better things to do :D). So, I usually carefully scan/inspect the edge with a 30X loupe and nothing jumps out that is worrisome, I just so hi-mag of the edge somewhere from the middle of the blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markevens

I love doing stuff like this. That must have been a lot of fun, and a learning experience to boot!

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More than you know :D. I really enjoyed this exercise as it was a giant leap in learning, but wouldn't do this day in and day out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roughkype

I really appreciate the microscope photos you guys post. I don't know that much about honing yet, but the pictures help me learn. I think this series was the best one I've seen yet.

I have (and use while honing) scopes at home too, but can't photograph through them. Is there some simple ocular attachment I can use with a fixed-lense camera?

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Thank you and you are welcome . There are attachments, but they are usually costly. If you decide to purchase an attachment bridge (between your DSLR and eyepiece...it would actually replace one of the eyepieces), you'd have to spend a good $400+ on it (I don't know about cheap bridges though...although I would advise against them as the optics are of low quality). This is how scope companies make money too...these types of accessories. That's one of the reasons I decided to use a USB powered scope rather than the stereo I have (with no bridge).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

I really enjoyed the shave today. The edge was with Asagi (with diamond slurry with dilution and finally with water) + stropping on premium IV leather.

Smooth as butter :y. In the next few weeks, I will finish the edge of this blade using each of the stones alone and shave testing.

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See? You're on the right track!:beer1:

Congratulations!

this is very interesting, thanks for posting

I also would like to say thanks for the images. I use a loop and it has helped alot, but nothing like those images.

Now if I have the selection of hones that were used here, If I did have those I would likely be single and living on someone elses couch!

Things look good from the pics but the real test is the shave test. My personal favourite edge is off my J-Nat and right onto the daily strop with no paste at all.

It might also be worth shave testing off the coticule and then adding in other stones and seeing how they change the feel of the edge and see which you like.

I can get great shaves right off my coticule, I just find the J-Nat and CF have a different feel to them. Not better or worse, just different! :)

Let us know how she shaves!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scrapcan

I also would likt to say thanks for the images. I use a loop and it has helped alot, but nothing like those images.

Now if I hav ethe selection of hones that were used here, If I did have ethose I woul dlikely be single and living on someone elses couch!

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You're welcome
Fortunately, I also involved my wife in picking/choosing the stones and she is totally behind it. Of course, I am going to lay off buying more stones. I have all I need to last me forever.

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

Of course, I am going to lay off buying more stones. I have all I need to last me forever.

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:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao ...........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao ...........

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I know Jimmy, I know :boohoo:...you're thinking: "famous last words"

interesting pictures indeed.

they somehow support my feeling that pasted strops aren't really necessary.
A good 8k + a good strop does the job.

Nice work.


R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

I know Jimmy, I know :boohoo:...you're thinking: "famous last words"

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there is always a reason to buy more stones :borg:

Well guys,
I gave myself a shave break yesterday and decided to try out a Coticule edge for today's shave. So, last night, I took my C-Mon HF to the Coti (unknown quarry) bout and used to dilucot method with moderate slurry:

• 20 back and forth laps + 6 dilutions
• refresh slurry (thin) + 15 laps X-strokes + 5 dilutions
• 50 laps on water alone (no pressure) to finish off
• No strop before shave...wanted to feel the edge directly

Here's the picture of the edge after the Coticule:
Attachment 52599


I see a slightly rougher edge compared to the JNat (see image in first post)...I can see that I definitely need more practice with this hone. Regardless, I shaved with this edge.


Shave result: Great, but not as smooth as the JNat, but I am still experimenting with my Coti(s) and it is highly likely that I still don't have a 100% handle on her personality...in time, in time!!

However, this shave test is not a fair comparison...last time, I used the Respecto Blade/JNat, and this time it was the C-Mon/Coti..two variables: blade + stone. I can even see that the blade type will play a role by simply comparing the scratch patterns on the two blades left behind with the Coticule (see Coti image in post #1...which was with the Respecto). I just couldn't wait for the Respecto's edge (currently a JNat edge) to pull before refreshing her edge on the Coti :D...I guess I am impatient to wait and test things one variable at a time.

I will keep this thread updated with pictures and results as the story (and experience) evolves. Your continuous feedback and interest is appreciated and definitely welcome :bow.

I followed almost the same progression as you, and my Veho pics looks almost similar to yours up to stage 5.
After I finished on my Asagi I used a CroX pasted balsa strop followed by leather loaded with 0.1 micron CBN. The result was amazing.
I tried CroX pasted linen, but that did not work for me.

That’s a big jump from .50 Chrome Oxide to .10um CBN, but if it works…

You might try .50um CBN before the .10 for a smoother edge.

CBN on cloth or paper works well especially when misted with distilled water.