Natural Stone Magic\Natural Steel

Over the past year or so, natural stones have replaced many of my synthetic stones especially at the finishing stages. Who can fault the squigee smooth edge of German water stones, or the silky velvet edge left by Jnats.

I have found them at their best with carbon steel blades. Repeatedly, I have gotten good edges on SS blades, but some how there is still something just shy of perfect when these amalgumated Chromide steels resist the magic of naturals. For these modern steels, Synthetic stones still give me the best edge. Anyone else find this to be true?

A half baked but documented hypothesis, could be that the weak acid Hydrogen phosphate salts in naturals are indeed part of the natural magic, and the SS alloys resist whatever action this mild chemical action transforms the carbon steels?

If that idea holds any merrit, carbon steels are literaly "organic" by nature, what better marraige then they should be harmonious with their natural stone mates.

I don't really know anything about the chemistry of steels or hones, but I have gotten some really nice edges on the new Dovo Micartas using my Thurry and Asagi.

I am not so sure about the chemistry either but my observations are close but not exact...

Carbon razors can be sharpened on just about anything...

SS and the newer Super Steels tend to get the best when stroked across the Naniwa SS and the Shapton GS stones...

Of course every time something like this comes up you have to realize that we are all just talking about minor differences here...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I don't really know anything about the chemistry of steels or hones, but I have gotten some really nice edges on the new Dovo Micartas using my Thurry and Asagi.

---

Yes,They do give very good edges....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am not so sure about the chemistry either but my observations are close but not exact...

Carbon razors can be sharpened on just about anything...

SS and the newer Super Steels tend to get the best when stroked across the Naniwa SS and the Shapton GS stones...

Of course every time something like this comes up you have to realize that we are all just talking about minor differences here...

---

This has been exactly my experience Glenn, that little something extra is what I am talking about. Like the difference from outstanding to extraordinary. Minor, but noticeable on my face.

Going back to carbon, I like the tooth left by Jnats and German Water stones even if they have been finished on 30k syn, I still run them on the naturals.

It is amazing how many stone systems, and razor styles, tempers and grinds, even obsessd amatuers like myself learn hanging with you guys.
It took me almost two years to really figure out the German Stone, the Jnat seemed easier for me. Bare in mind I was raised on a synthetic diet.

Other than bevel setting I had gotten away from synthetics for some months now but I've been returning to them lately. Still tend to finish with the Escher. I don't have any J-nats so I can't comment on them but I am curious. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am not so sure about the chemistry either but my observations are close but not exact...

Carbon razors can be sharpened on just about anything...

SS and the newer Super Steels tend to get the best when stroked across the Naniwa SS and the Shapton GS stones...

Of course every time something like this comes up you have to realize that we are all just talking about minor differences here...

---

Thanks Glen, I was just thinking of posting a thread on what people like to use to finish Stainless. Do you find this also hold true for really hard carbon blade like the New TI carbonsong 135 blades?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superbleu

Thanks Glen, I was just thinking of posting a thread on what people like to use to finish Stainless. Do you find this also hold true for really hard carbon blade like the New TI carbonsong 135 blades?

---

I have never had problems finishing hard steels on a Jnat. The TI carbon song 135 blades I have honed all were pretty easy to work with.

I have also noticed that stainless blades (kitchen) tend to be a pain in the butt on anything not synthetic. My Shapton glass stones do a very good job there on the stainless. I don't have any stainless razors so I really can't comment fully but I would expect the same issues.

Funny as I switched to naturals for my razors and kept the synthetics for my kitchen knives. Steel hardness has been less of an issue for me than stainless vs carbon... Stainless just doesn't like me...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Other than bevel setting I had gotten away from synthetics for some months now but I've been returning to them lately. Still tend to finish with the Escher. I don't have any J-nats so I can't comment on them but I am curious. :)

---

I admire your self dicipline?:confused: I really could not have just one finsher.:w

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superbleu

Thanks Glen, I was just thinking of posting a thread on what people like to use to finish Stainless. Do you find this also hold true for really hard carbon blade like the New TI carbonsong 135 blades?

---

This is where it gets dicey, see I want to say yes the C135 blades are exactly what I would go to the Naniwa SS with, but I also don't want to say the Naturals won't do it...

Lets just say I have enough stones, and enough time on them, to pick and chose what I think is going to give me the most consistent, comfortable, close edge to my face and my honing style... There, was that PC enough ????

Some razors react better with some stones, but I have never not been able to get a close comfortable shave off any of them..Again we are talking minute differences here...

Everyone, brace yourselves for the shock...

I use a coticule to finish almost all of my razors... Now that you've had a chance to regain your composure, I'll admit that getting the SS razors "right" is more difficult for me. It's totally doable and the resulting edges are great. They are easier just easier on my Shaptons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Over the past year or so, natural stones have replaced many of my synthetic stones especially at the finishing stages. Who can fault the squigee smooth edge of German water stones, or the silky velvet edge left by Jnats.

I have found them at their best with carbon steel blades. Repeatedly, I have gotten good edges on SS blades, but some how there is still something just shy of perfect when these amalgumated Chromide steels resist the magic of naturals. For these modern steels, Synthetic stones still give me the best edge. Anyone else find this to be true?

A half baked but documented hypothesis, could be that the weak acid Hydrogen phosphate salts in naturals are indeed part of the natural magic, and the SS alloys resist whatever action this mild chemical action transforms the carbon steels?

If that idea holds any merrit, carbon steels are literaly "organic" by nature, what better marraige then they should be harmonious with their natural stone mates.

---

You must be a Republican or a sheep to believe this as any right thinking person knows the real truth....Oops:gaah:. I thought this was the global warming thread...sorry.



;):D

Question for anyone that uses both ~ You think the newer ceramics like the Shaps & Nanis simply cut faster than the older style synthetic waterstones or could you hone up a SS razor just as quick on a Norton progression ?
I had a Kasumi 3k & a Norton 4k side by side & a few strokes with a SS blade looked like black marker on the Kasumi whereas the Norton showed little swarf by comparison.

The Norton's are still a viable stone with SS or Supersteels,, but if I had a choice I would go Naniwa 1st and Shapton 2nd....

As you can see I have a pretty locked in "stone" attitude about the SS razors and the harder chippy razors... I have not ever had a problem with them since going to the full Naniwa set up for them I go 1-3-5-8-10-12 the CeOx 15 laps and strop in 50/100 and I am done and the edge is very very smooth...
The Shaptons will do the same BUT you have to be a little more aware when you get to the 16k and 30k...

Again I gotta emphasize these are minute differences because my Nakayama can get there too :) but it takes a bit of finesse..

Edit: I am talking about the Naniwa Super stones and the Shapton Glass stones...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

I have also noticed that stainless blades (kitchen) tend to be a pain in the butt on anything not synthetic. My Shapton glass stones do a very good job there on the stainless. I don't have any stainless razors so I really can't comment fully but I would expect the same issues.

Funny as I switched to naturals for my razors and kept the synthetics for my kitchen knives. Steel hardness has been less of an issue for me than stainless vs carbon... Stainless just doesn't like me...

---

I just thought of this possibility too, it might be that there are incredible naturals for stainless, but maybe not the same one that work on carbon blades.

Those of us that are getting Jnats for example from reputable dealers are getting ones that have been selected for carbon razors specifically. I do keep my kitchen knives up with a small asagi colored koppa size that I would never use on the razors, but it brings up a quick swarf on my kitchen knives with slurry. Of course I would not shave with it, but great on veggies, fruits and meats, so I have no clue how it would relate to razor sharpening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Other than bevel setting I had gotten away from synthetics for some months now but I've been returning to them lately. Still tend to finish with the Escher. I don't have any J-nats so I can't comment on them but I am curious. :)

---

Still no Jnats, Jimmy?! I mean, c'mon dude! LOL!:fim:

I haven't actually honed any SS blades yet because I have never bought one, I tend to buy old razors and they're usually Carbon Blades but Sham and I did have a conversation once about the Charnley Forest and I learned that the CF was very good for finishing SS blades but wasn't used for any Carbon blades...

I thought it was interesting.

Hi,

I must admit to be a curmudgeonly, miserable git when it comes to natural stones :)

Being an analytical chemist by profession, I prefer the consistency & cost benefit of synthetic hones.

So by having this odd point of view, I have never exerienced the delights of natural stones :(

Recently, some strange force has been driving me to get a coti, so there is hope for me yet :)

All my razors, carbon steel, SS & C135 hone wonderfully on my Nainwas :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't have any J-nats so I can't comment on them but I am curious. :)

---

I guess you're dangerously close to a screen name change :)
Maybe Jimmy J-nat-not?

I haven't actually honed any SS blades yet because I have never bought one, I tend to buy old razors and they're usually Carbon Blades but Sham and I did have a conversation once about the Charnley Forest and I learned that the CF was very good for finishing SS blades but wasn't used for any Carbon blades...

I thought it was interesting.[/QUOTE]

I see we go to the same school. Yes the CF will do better with SS, So will a Turkish oilstone and or a nice high end Arki. I have all three and from what I have seen so far this is a true statement.. I only use synthetics for bevel progression to about 8K. Then switch to naturals for finishing. My Eschers are at the top rung of the ladder. And some other stones/ hones you can play tricks with. The quest continues. that's the fun part.
MIke

Thanks Mike:
I am just starting the first dance steps with my CF, but I guess I am going to have to try a spin with a SS razor now... I have done about 10 razors on it so far all carbon and have been getting some good results...

Getting this one dialed in is most likely going to take a bit of time :hmmm: I like to do about 100 razors on them before I start thinking I know them... I'll have to push some SS on there, which is going to be hard for me because I normally push them toward the Naniwas

Whoa G, I’m susceptible to flattery. Don’t forget your good Ol Translucent Arki, you may be surprised how similar the two behave on “Stain – Less” steel. I just picked up a Sheffield’s Best Silver Steel razor.

It took Sham 10hrs to get an edge on that thing. It’s not stainless either. Freaky looking thing with a safety catch on the handle. I’ll see if I can get a pic posted.

MIke:)