Question on Spine Taping and Angle

I've read plenty on honing and have watched lots of videos, but I'm left with a question I cannot find the answer to. I understand why the spine is taped, to avoid wear on the spine. What I don't understand is what angle the blade should be held at. I'm assuming that the blade is held flat on a 1000 grit stone, and that is why the spine is taped to avoid wear. But I've watched videos where after the 4000 grit stone is used and the honer moves on to 8000 grit, the tape is then removed. Is the blade still held flat at this point? Is it possible to remove the tape from the spine at this point because the grit is so fine that the spine will only be polished and not scraped or damaged? I'm sorry if this question has been dealt with elsewhere, but I couldn't find it. And thanks in advance for your consideration and assistance.

Some guys tape the spine at all times and others sometimes depending on the situation and/or the razor involved. The only time to ever lift the spine when honing AFAIC is if you are removing a large chip and you are on a low grit stone for maximum metal removal. That is more restoration than honing though and rarely encountered by the average user IMO. Most of the time chip removal is accomplished keeping the spine on the hone and if it is a large chip and a low grit hone tape is probably a good idea. There are quite a few threads on the pros and cons of taping if you do a search you'll come up with a considerable amount of info. Other than noted above the spine and bevel should be on the hone at all times.

Thanks for the helpful reply. In the case of a really fine Straight, the spine on the stone won't cause damage above 4000 grit, and it probably would at the 1000 grit level? I'm just trying to make sure that in honing I won't be harming the polish of the blade. And I'll do a taping search as well. Again, thanks!

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Originally Posted by ace

In the case of a really fine Straight, the spine on the stone won't cause damage above 4000 grit, and it probably would at the 1000 grit level?

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I think it depends on the skill of the honer. A heavy handed honer might cause some wear. Just from my own experience, I honed all razors with tape my first year doing it because I was afraid of causing excessive spine wear.

After a year or so I felt more confident in my ability and began trying it without tape. I took a micrometer and measured the spine on a new old stock vintage razor before I honed it and after. This included setting the bevel on a 1k stone and using the pyramid method with the 4/8 norton and finishing on a higher grit. In that particular razor there was no appreciable spine wear.

I've continued honing without tape since then. The only time I use tape is on Damascus (pattern welded steel) razors to avoid taking off the surface etching. Nothing wrong with using tape and if I honed for other people I probably would. As it is I only hone my own so that isn't an issue. So far I've had no issues with untoward spine wear.

I get your point on the spine not being eroded significantly by the honing without tape. I guess I'm concerned more about appearance, say in the example of a beautifully polished blade. Will honing without taping change the appearance of the blade, reduce the shine or polish? Also, at what grit level is that no longer an issue? I can imagine it might be at 1000 grit, but would the finish no longer be affected by the hone at the 4000 grit level? Again, thanks for the replies.

Regardless of the grit level it will polish the steel at the spine and leave a scratch pattern as it does at the bevel. If you're just starting out there is nothing at all wrong with one layer of electrical tape. I liked 3M because it is made in Minneapolis and is a consistent thickness. Some of the imported stuff can vary IME.

+1 to the 3m Jimmy...If I have to use Tape, it's their Scotch 33+. Excellent...
I don't tape as a rule, unless the previous owner tells me he used to tape to set the bevel or what have you...Like Jimmy said, there no real wear, if I have to use like a 400 grit hone, which I have a few times for faster chip removal, I've taped...
Or if it's a fancy spine, or like Jimmy said, Damascus steel...Yes, good point, The tape does stay on all the way through...

I just recently heard about lifting the spine to remove chips faster...Makes sense, and if your a knife guy, like me...Maintaining an angle should be no problem..I would not recommend this move to a novice honer...

The great thing about sharpening straight razors is the angle is built in...For normal honing, You just lay it flat on the stone, smooth controlled movements, and no pressure...

One thing from the original post that didn't get brought up - If you set the bevel with tape, you need to keep the same amount of tape on all the way through (unless you reset the bevel after taking the tape off). Otherwise, you will only be polishing the back of the bevel, as opposed to the whole bevel from the edge back.

Thanks for all the help, and I now appreciate that the spine serves as a guide, with or without tape, to establish the angle for the bevel.

My question is "What effect does that have on the spine, not so much regarding whether it is or is not reduced, but on how it looks?"

What if I take a brand new, all fancied-up Dubl Duck, with special scales on it and all, and attempt to hone it? Will that pretty blade be scratched up, the mirror finish ruined, by a couple passes at 400 grit without tape on the spine? And at what point in variable grit levels is disfiguring the mirror finish of the blade no longer a problem?

Sorry to be so persistent about this, but I would hate to hone a beautiful
blade and make it less pretty in the process.

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Originally Posted by ace

Sorry to be so persistent about this, but I would hate to hone a beautiful
blade and make it less pretty in the process.

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Tape your beautiful blade and when you acquire a plain blade with no wear on the spine give that one a try. For me I wouldn't be honing a razor on a 400 grit unless I was removing a large chip. I generally start at 1k or higher. Anyhow, ease into it with taping your spines and do like I did with trying it without tape after you feel confident in your skills. Just don't try it with no tape unless it is a blade that your not worried about causing spine wear. IME it takes a while to cause wear unless you have a heavy hand.

The only parts of the razor that touch the hone are the thin bands on the spine and edge, so those are the only parts that get scratched.

Myself, I prefer hone wear to stay where it belongs "On the Hone" Keep in mind I think my preference started because I started restoring razors early on, and in my mind spending hours hand-sanding a blade to a beautiful finish, then to cause wear on the spine after all the work in put into it, seemed like total insanity to my OCD brain...

It sounds like most honers are allowing for a certain amount of "hone wear" on the spine. Looking at some of the blades I've seen on here, I think it would be a travesty to generate a fine edge on one of them and scar the spine however slightly. I realize that they are functional entities, made to cut hair with, but they have an aesthetic value as well. I guess that is where the taping of the spine comes in. I just can't figure why someone would take the tape off at the 4000 grit level. At that level, would there be no spine scarring?

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Originally Posted by ace

I just can't figure why someone would take the tape off at the 4000 grit level. At that level, would there be no spine scarring?

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As I said above, if you take the tape off after you set the bevel and don't reset the bevel, you will not be honing the edge of the razor. Only the very back of the bevel will make contact with the hone. This means that, no matter what you hone on, you will still have the same edge as you did before you removed the tape. You said you saw that in a youtube video, but just because something is on youtube (or anywhere else) does not mean it is correct.

As for the spine wear - if you look at a brand new razor, you will see there is a flat area on the spine and on the edge (at least every new razor I have seen). The amount of honing that a new razor typically needs will not change that flat area enough for you to notice the difference. The same is true of many vintage razors (unless they need a lot of work to reset the bevel - i.e. chips or many heavy grind blades) - there is already wear there and you will probably not be able to tell the difference with or without tape.

Two exceptions that I can think of are restored razors (where the flat area at the spine is removed during the restoration process as a result of sanding/buffing/whatever) or some sort of full-razor decoration process (such as a damascus razor).

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Originally Posted by ace

It sounds like most honers are allowing for a certain amount of "hone wear" on the spine. Looking at some of the blades I've seen on here, I think it would be a travesty to generate a fine edge on one of them and scar the spine however slightly. I realize that they are functional entities, made to cut hair with, but they have an aesthetic value as well. I guess that is where the taping of the spine comes in. I just can't figure why someone would take the tape off at the 4000 grit level. At that level, would there be no spine scarring?

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Think of it this way, if you do not use tape and you hone the razor on any grit the same amount of wear will occur at the spine as will occur at the bevel. There will be some variation depending on whether you torque the pressure (slight) towards the bevel and if there is a variance of the hardness between the spine and the bevel.

Take an eye loupe and a brand new razor and check the line on the spine and you will see a scratch pattern. It may be slight but it will correspond with the pattern on the bevel unless they, like Hart and Zowada, use tape on their production.

I've read a number of times that you can set a bevel with tape and then remove it and move to a higher grit and it won't take a hell of a lot of strokes to get down to where you're honing the very edge again. I've done this myself a few times if I had chips to remove or whatever. Not unheard of.

Whether you want to use tape to avoid any wear is a personal choice and there is nothing wrong with it if you want to go that way. Many of the pro honemeisters tape the razors they do for customers to avoid any wear on the spine unless specifically requested not to. I probably would too if I honed someone else's razor.

I'm indebted to both of you gentlemen for sharing your knowledge. As regards the YouTube video (and your comment was to the point regarding believing everything one sees there), the gent doing the honing stripped the tape off, if I remember correctly, after completing the bevel at 1000K. He then moved on to 4000K. I see what you are saying about removing the tape changing the angle that one would get vis-a-vis the bevel.

I'm quite obviously a noob here, thinking of getting into maintaining my own razor. Having said that, I'll venture another question. I would be inclined to keep the tape on throughout the entire process, for the reasons you have mentioned. Would the tape get ground into the stone? Would it have the effect of slicking it up if some of the material in the tape got into it? BTW, I've looked at both your sites and found them attractive. I'll probably wind up a customer. Again, thanks!

Theoretically, if the edge wears at a faster rate than the spine, which taping will cause, this means that the bevel angle becomes ever so slightly bigger. This would be more significant at the lower grits and I guess would take many honing sessions done this way to make a significant difference.
If this angle is important (it may not be??), then the spine and edge must wear at the same rate to prevent the angle altering which means no tape.
All said I can see good reasons for taping as mentioned here, and think a good principal is to do the minimum on the hone to get the job done.

If you are going to use tape it isn't a bad idea to check it every now and again to see if the tape is wearing. If it is replace it with a new piece. Some guys do this with every change of grit.

What Deckard said about the relationship between bevel angle changing since the spine is not wearing while the bevel is could be an issue over many honings. Not sure how many but I think it would be a heap of 'em. :) Probably a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What Deckard said about the relationship between bevel angle changing since the spine is not wearing while the bevel is could be an issue over many honings. Not sure how many but I think it would be a heap of 'em. :) Probably a lifetime.

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Yup, lots and lots of honing. If you think about it, the bevel angle changes when the ratio of the spine width to the blade width (edge to spine) changes. So let's say you always tape - that keeps the spine width constant. In order for the bevel angle to change, you have to decrease the blade width. How long does it take for that to happen?

Assuming you never damage your razor (so you never have to reset the bevel), that is the same as asking "How many passes do you have to do on your finishing/touchup hone to significantly change the blade width of a razor?"

Let's put that in perspective. A 1k hone should cut about 10 times faster than a 10k hone (which is around where the touchup/finisher will be, at the lower end). So how many strokes on the 1k to change your blade width? I doubt you'd notice it after 100 strokes. Maybe not even after 500. I bet it's even more, but let's assume it takes 500. That gives you 5000 passes on your finishing hone to change the blade width. And that is a barely perceptible change - maybe a fraction of a mm. I don't have the equations here in front of me, but I'd say that probably equates to a fraction of a degree - maybe 1/3 or 1/2 at most. But again, on the safe side, let's say 1 degree.

I would guess that for normal maintenance, at most, you'd do 10 strokes per week. So that gives you 500 weeks; or about 10 years to see the angle change. And that is if you use the razor every day, hone it every week, and go on the safe/low side with the numbers.

Now think about this - there is a range of bevel angles on razors, I think optimal angles have a range of two or three degrees. So that means 20 or 30 YEARS before there is an angle change that has any meaning (again, on the safe side with the numbers).

Based on all that, I wouldn't be concerned with changes in blade geometry from taping. Then again, I don't tape my razors in the first place (geometry is not the reason behind that choice).

Dylan, you lost me at "math".

FWIW: I too started out taping the spine. Now I am beginning to appreciate the feel of using no tape. I'll still use it if I'm doing major repair, but only in moderation. It's a case by case basis.

Got it, all of it, and thanks. Still I wonder about the effect of rubbing the taped spine across the stones, especially lower numerical grit stones. When I used to sharpen knives, I had to be concerned about "slicking up" a stone. Wouldn't the tape material tend to get imbeded in the stones? If that is the case, could it be removed? Based on the fact that taping is done, I would assume it is not a problem. Perhaps lapping grinds the stone below the level of imbeded material? Still, I wonder about the effect of taping on the stone itself.

Tape residue does show up on my King 1k. I either rub it lightly with my hand or take a few passes with a diamond plate to gently lap it, since it is a fast dishing stone. I don't know about imbeded in the stone, since it easily comes off.

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Originally Posted by bassguy

Dylan, you lost me at "math".

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I never actually said "math" :-p

Also, +1 to what you said about declogging hones, in the event that it happens.

I'm not an expert honer but I've now done quite a few straights.
My preference is not to use tape but if it is a Damascus blade or something with gold wash that might get scratched off, then I do use one layer of electrical tape. If I use tape, then I leave it of for the whole honing progression so as not to change the angle.
When I first started honing, I used tape up to and including the 4k hone and then taking it off and could understand why I couldn't get an edge sharp enough to shave with.
So, either tape the whole way or no tape the whole way.

OK, I guess I'm ready to start honing now. All I need is some stones, some skill, some practice, and lots of luck. Maybe I'd better go ahead and get a straight too!

Your going to get "swarf" no matter tape or not and this will lead to minor glazing/clogging of the hone. Simply place the hone under some running water and use either a brush , your fingers or a green nylon scrubbing pad to remove the stuff whenever you think it needs it.

Hope this helps, :)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Your going to get "swarf" no matter tape or not and this will lead to minor glazing/clogging of the hone. Simply place the hone under some running water and use either a brush , your fingers or a green nylon scrubbing pad to remove the stuff whenever you think it needs it.

Hope this helps, :)

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Yes it does help. It's nice to know that the residue can be easily cleaned off. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by ace

OK, I guess I'm ready to start honing now. All I need is some stones, some skill, some practice, and lots of luck. Maybe I'd better go ahead and get a straight too!

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And a roll of electrical tape :rofl2:

When I think of the angle of the bevel or should I say bevel to be, when the honeing proccess begins and the bevel would say be set with tape, one layer, two layers, whatever, and then the tape is removed, just from what little common sense I still retain, the new "edge" will be up in in the air off the stone surface. And by it should take many more strokes to get the edge and the surface of the bevel on the same plane again, yes?? Well to my way of thinking any who. And that would be from 1k to the 4k for most honers. Then another question arise's. If you hone a Str8 for someone else, or even if you own quite a few Str8's when you or the other blouke feel its time to ''touch up" the razor between honeing and you put it to a barber hone if taped fully throughout the proccess the actual edge will not be on the hone for the touch-up. Meaning to touch up a razor that has been taped while honed you would have to tape the spine up while using a barbaer hone also,,................hope I'm getting though what I'm trying to say any way!! What I"m trying to say is if you hone a razor for someone and use tape you should make sure that know this so the touch up they will need at some point can be done while taped to ensure a happy customer. A long way to make my point but there it is.

So, as you said originaly, get your self some razors, some hones, a strop 'er two and ''GET TO WET SHAVING!!"

Be good, Be safe, Be BBS!!

tinkersd of SRP!

And well put. Imagine what it would be like to try to touch up a razor that had been fairly heavily taped by someone like me concerned about spine wear only to find that on 4K or 8K nothing is going on except getting a nice shine on the side of the bevel? If it is true,as stated here, that taping is done primarily when a razor is honed for someone else, I wonder how many people have gotten razors done for them only to find that they were unable to touch them up because the bevel-setting had been done while they were taped? Or, to the same point, how many people have gotten razors from others, from Ebay, etc. and didn't know that the bevel had been set with a taped spine?

Honestly you guys are way over thinking this, and trust me we all have done the same in the past... Here are the numbers, and please don't take my word for this, there are multiple threads on this forum proving it...

Bevel angles range from about 13 degrees to 25 degrees, They all shave..
The mean and average falls at about 16 degrees
3M Electrical tape 33+ adds just less then .75 of one degree to the bevel angle on a 6/8 razor

By the time any of this matters the blade will be so short the flex and shaving ability will be gone anyway...

If you want to tape, tape if you don't want to tape, don't, the only real difference it will make is on the spine...

I'm just trying to get some of thinking out of the way before I attempt honing. Doing it the opposite way would doom a decent edge on a piece of steel. Elsewhere in this thread we find:

"As I said above, if you take the tape off after you set the bevel and don't reset the bevel, you will not be honing the edge of the razor. Only the very back of the bevel will make contact with the hone. "

So the effect of the tape is negligible on the actual bevel angle, but it IS important as regards finishing the edge after the bevel is set. That is, whether one tapes or not will be meaningless regarding the final quality of the edge. However, if one removes the tape the bevel was set with, then finishing will really amount only to a very slow, and unintentional, process of re-establishing the bevel. Is that right?

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Originally Posted by ace

However, if one removes the tape the bevel was set with, then finishing will really amount only to a very slow, and unintentional, process of re-establishing the bevel. Is that right?

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If you set the bevel on a 1k taped, remove the tape and hone on the 4k it won't take that long to get down to where you're making contact with the edge. Alternatively if you have an ebay special with minor chips and corrosion, tape the spine, get the garbage out on the 1k, and then take the tape off. Stay on the 1k with no tape it will take even less time to get to the very edge.

OTOH, just start out with one layer of tape and stick with it. You won't have to remember which were taped and which were not or worry about wear on the spine. Once you feel confident in your skills make the choice to go with or without. Just my 2 cents. :)

Thanks for the response. Now off to get some stones!:)