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I was just wondering precisely why using the pyramid method to honing is better? So far in my limited honing experience I've never used one, though, I have occasionally reverted back to a rougher stone. In my knife sharpening experience (though I'm not an expert) I've never used any techniques that resemble a pyramid either.
So anyway, what advantages/disadvantages does using pyramids posses? What exactly is it doing different to the steel/edge?
The pyramid is IMO a method that enables the inexperiences honer to get to a good result without much knowledge about how the edge develops and what grit is needed at what stage. It thus forms a well-proven basis from which the beginner can build up his own knowledge about honing.
Furthermore, the alteration of grits helps to prevent a wire edge.
-Axel-
I second that.
X
The purpose of the Pyramid method is to provide a structure, a method, of honing that will allow a new person to obtain a shaving sharp edge. It has another goal of preventing the most common mistake, an overhoned edge, which is also referred to as a "wire edge". The method uses a slow and gradual approach to honing. It does require a bit of patience, persistence and practice but it will get you there.
The document in the files section needs to be expanded to differentiate between the different types of edges a person encounters such as, New razor, ebay special, edge refreshing and also mention needs to be made of the pressure to use at each stage.
I will have to get to that soon!:)
Based on the number of different types of razors out there, the hardness of the metals, the shapes of the blades and the various degrees of previous honing, there will always be a degree of experimentation and refinement, but the Pyramid methods and X stroke provide a very consistent basis for new folks. Good Luck. Lynn
So you use the X-pattern, even when the hone is wide enough for the entire blade ?
Redwoood
When I got my norton, this also confussed the hell out of me, I do use the X pattern on my 3" wide norton. It works much better.
Peter
The most common honing stroke used is the X pattern stroke.
One reason is that it works with most of the blade shapes and accomadates most hone sizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoood
now, with a narrow hone, I totally understand.
but if your hone is as wide as your blade, don't you eventually overhone the toe and underhone the heel ?
I mean you don't have a choice where to start the stroke, because if your heel is not at the edge of the stone, ie you start with the heel in the middle, then the blade would rest on the shoulder, and you would hardly be able to get a proper angle.
So I need to to start with the heel at the edge, and as soon as I start honing (with the X pattern) more and more of the heel leaves the hone, while the toe is on the stone for the entire stroke.
How does that work? :thinking:
Redwoood
If you hone a blade with a smile then only a small part of the edge contacts the hone. That is why you have to use a slight shifting of the contact point throughout the stroke to go from heel to toe.
This also prevents the excessive honing of the toe since it does not touch the hone from start to finish of the stroke.
I find most of my blades require the slight rocking from heel to to and if they don't I still do this and impart a slight smile to the edge over time. I prefer a slight smile to a flat edge for purely aesthetic reasons. Both shave well, but to me a smile looks better.
Yeah, there's that in theory. In practice it's a bit different. Like much about this it depends on the individual. Pressure is one thing. How much you actually use the heel vs. the toe in the shave. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoood
I'm with Vlad, but I'd add that a smiling blade is actually easier for me to manoeuvre around the corners of my jawline and beside my adam's apple.
X
There is NO reason to use the x-pattern on a wide stone. If you hone straight across with the heel leading, you'll get exactly the same result, as far as the scratch pattern is concerned. Plus, going straight across with the entire edge, it's easier to keep the pressure even for the entire length of the blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoood
A while back I was curious about the x-pattern and did some research. I found that it is recommended because it produces a slightly better edge. If you look in the old barber's manual, you can see that edge represented like a saw blade, with a sharp rise and gradual trail off. If you think of shaving with the tip leading, that's the best shape for the microserrations. Honing straight across gives you symmetrical teeth, which shave well if you push the blade straight ahead when you shave, but not if you lead with the tip.
BOTTOM LINE: the old barbers used the x-pattern for two reasons: they had narrow stones, and the x-pattern gives a better edge for shaving with tip leading, which is what they were taught. You'll get the same edge honing straight across with a wide stone, if you lead with the heel.
Thanks Joe, that makes perfect sense.
Redwoood
Straight across, heel leading honing strokes assume that the entire edge is making contact with the hone. This is something that must be evaluated for each razor.
Just my two cents
Now your realy showing off Vlad ,most people would be happy with a razor sharp enough to shave comfortably, but you have to make your`s smile at you when you shave,next you will have the dam things telling jokesQuote:
Originally Posted by vladsch
regards peter:D :D
This works exactly the same as the x-pattern if the edge is straight (except it's easier to maintain even pressure). No extra considerations are necessary. If you have a smiling edge you can't use this approach because you need to sweep the blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
X pattern is designed to hone blades with smiles, also a straight edge. The point is no matter how straight an edge is, the contact is never complete when honong straight pattern. Also, when honing holding the blade with one hand, the pressure is greater at the heel of the razor, so X pattern helps distribute the pressure across the blade.
Nenad
I have to disagree with that. If you have a straight edge the entire edge should touch the stone, unless there's something wrong with your edge or the stone. If your edge doesn't and your blade isn't bent, and your stone is true you probably honed unevenly.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
The only reason the x-pattern was used was because the stones used to be narrow and because it gives scratch lines that slant a certain way. It will handle smiles that are cut with extra honing at the ends of the blade, just like straight honing. It will not cut smiles that were made by swinging the blade.
It is virtually impossible to get even pressure when different parts of the blade are off the stone during different parts of the stroke. I'm willing to bet that like the rest of us you had to learn how to compensate for that. When you hone srtaight across with a leading heel, you'll get the same scratch pattern, but the entire edge is supported during the entire stroke, so even honing is easy. Some people even us to hands
While this is true it is incomplete. Athough the whole blade on a perfectly flat edge (and we can argue about how many edges are perfectly flat) will assumedly touch the hone completely, it will not have equal pressure contact with the hone along its entire edge by simple virtue of the fact that the tip is farther away from the force (your hand) than the heel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
It will cut all shaped edges well, even irregularly shaped blades. And smiles are normally either made from the 'Rolling Hone' method or intended out of the factory, but I assume Joe meant irregularly made smiles or perhaps 'smirks' as a result of a scything motion on the hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
This has not been my experience as I have said above regardless how hard I try. The edge of the hone also stymies me with the regular 'X' motion which is why I stick to the Rolling Hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
As you can see Redwoood (& ToxIk?), there are almost as many opinions and ways of approaching this as there are members. You'll have to shuffle through all the suggestions to find what works best for you.
X
Thanks for all the great info guys. The thread is filled with relevant and useful knowledge. I lovit!
I think I'm well on my way to having my own personal system worked out. Some of the knowledge I have from sharpening knives has certainly come in handy, but all the tips, tricks and methods I've picked up here have helped immensely.
The system I kind of have worked out is loosely based off the pyramids and seems to work well. One thing I still work on greatly is experimenting and trying to find new ways to pickup feedback from the hones, or, whatever other method I'm using. The HHT and tree-top-trim test work very well and provide useful information. However, there just seems to be something lacking that I either haven't figured out yet, or don't know a test for. Ohh well, practice makes perfect; and I now have many blades to practice on (and much less money to practice with!).
X, thanx for typing that instead of me. I didn't had the time AND energy to do that one more time...
Nenad
You're assuming that you hone like you do with the x-pattern. When you go straight across, you can place a finger at the center or even use two hands. Either way, an inexperienced honer has much bettr control and a much easier time of applying even pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
Agreed. If you made the edge in a plane (that's what I meant by straight), you can hone straight across.Quote:
It will cut all shaped edges well, even irregularly shaped blades. And smiles are normally either made from the 'Rolling Hone' method or intended out of the factory, but I assume Joe meant irregularly made smiles or perhaps 'smirks' as a result of a scything motion on the hone.
If by rolling you mean scything, I can't imagine how you consisntently get the edge in one plane. That's what causes all those damaged edges on old razors that turn up at the tip. If you're trying for a smile, the way the baber manual teaches that will still give you a plane edge is to add swipes at the ends of the blade and use more pressure there. As long as you don't overdo it, yoou'll even get and equal width band.Quote:
This has not been my experience as I have said above regardless how hard I try. The edge of the hone also stymies me with the regular 'X' motion which is why I stick to the Rolling Hone.
I can't imagine how a straight across, heel leading motion could be any easier or could not give you an even edge (with the slightest bit of care). You could even use two hands and apply equal, but light pressure with a finger at each end of the blade. It's slow, but perfect for a newbie. For speed, I'll use an x-pattern, but even then I'll extend a finger over the spine and slide it to keep it in the middle of the portion contacting the stone.
I wish you had. Please explain how it's physically impossible to get a flat edge when you're working with a flat blade and a planar stone, and you're touching the entire edge to the stone and applying equal pressure. If you find that so difficult with going straight across with heel leading, how do you manage it with an x-pattern when little, if any, part of the blade is in contact with the stone during a stroke?Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
I don't doubt you can do it after all the practice you've had, but how do you expect a newbie to do it? I think they deserve to be taught the easy way first.
OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Untill now, I've had a chance to work with numerous razors, new, eboy finds, junk razors, and used razors honed by expert members here. They have variety of blade shapes and grinds, even edge curves. I manage to keep all of them shaving sharp, using various techniques.
First, about straight edge razors. I've had a chance to examine 4 newly forged blades with straight spines (indicating straight cutting edge), DOVO's and Henkells, and one older blade (ERN C&S), with no hone wear. All blades had very slight smile (edge curvature with the more pronaunced middle section), and the C&S even had a slight frown (opposite to smile, in geometry too ;-) This is due to bevel creating technique the factory workers use. You can see this process in the three videos we have on this site (linked somewhere) two from the DOVO factory, and one from the TI. The workers in the videos are creating the bevel on horizontal abrasive wheel, where they hold the razor horizontaly, with one hand! and the razor is moving to and from the center of the wheel. At the latest DOVO video, the lady who is doing sharpening, is not even holding the razor flat at the stone, but with very small angle, and is moving it across the stone. Now, you can clearly see that this is not going to produce straight edge, no matter how hard they try for two reasons: First, the technique of the sharpening I've already desribed, and second, the horisontal abrasive wheel they sharpen on is never flat and true. Yes, it sounds strange, but I doubt they are taking the stone off, and flatten it after every 5-10 razors. That is the reason they developed the sharpening technique, other wise, you wont be able to sharpen the razor at all. The technique described is not bad, it just can't produce PERFECTLY straight edge.
Now, when newbie gets his brand new stainless steel DOVO micarta razor, and his brand new Norton hone, the problems start. The razor, is offcourse, not sharp enough to shave, and the newbie is even having problems to keep his blade in contact with the stone when honing. The obvious honing method a clever newbie is gonna try is pushing his brand new hard as hell razor straight through the hone, with two or three fingers laying on the spine, and with ~45 angle to the horizontal axis on the hone. "Hey, this was easy", says newbie. "I only wonder why even after numerous pyramides, cubes, spheres and what not, the razor is not giving me comfortable shave??" I'll tell you why. Because the razor has even slight smile to it, and the 4000 side is not abrasive enough to straighten the geometry of the edge, especially with the light-as-a-feather pressure you are using. That is also why your razor is passing the damn HHT only on couple of places, which are, you guessed it, the ones that are in contact with the stone.
Now, again, I'm not saying there is no way to create a straight edge, and maintain it that way, if you wish. There is. Here's how I do it. Mind, on the razors with straight spines only.
Take a glass plate, the same one you got for lapping your Norton stone, per suggestion of mr. Brian Donofrio. Go to the store, and get your self couple sheets of sandpaper, grits: 500, 800, 1200, and maybe 2000, if you are not lazy. Cut them to stripes 3 inches wide. Get a double stick tape, same dimensions as the stripes you just made, and leave it for ~1mm, or in lame measures ;) ~1/16 wider on each side. I'll tell you why later. Stick the tape to each of the four sides of the glass plate, and stick the sandpaper to it. Firmly. You should have sandpaper with a DS tape slightly protruding from each of it's sides. Now, take a glass of water with you, sit comfortably, and with glass plate on your table top, start honing. First, ofcourse, on the roughest grit. Hold the razor with one hand on the tang, and the other two or three fingers on the spine. Flat on the hone, with the edge ~45 degrees to the longer axis of the makeshift hone, i.e. sandpaper. Start pushing the razor straight up and down the "hone", like you normally do, edge leading. You can aply some pressure, say from 1-2 pounds, per Randy's recipe. This is the only method for straightening the edge. And it has to be done this way, on coarse grit, and preferably on new sheet of sandpaper. You can do it on the coarse Norton or other stone, but by the time you finish, your arms will fall of, and you will wear the stone uneavenly, which returns you to the start. When you are done with the 500 grit sandpaper (your razor has nice and even scratch pattern all the way trough the edge) you do the same thing on the 800 sandpaper. Than the 1200. Even 2000, if you wish so. I forgot to tell you about the water and the lenght of the DS tape. Trough the entire process, you should keep the sandpaper very wet. Now, don't overdo it, we don't want water all over your keyboard, only to keep the metal particles floating all the time. The DS tape should protrude a bit, and should be stuck firmly to the glass and the paper to keep the water out of underneath the sandpaper, otherwise, the paper will bulk up from underneath, and screw your effort for nice and even edge. Where were we..? ah, the Norton stone. Take the Norton from your bucket/pan/batthub/sink, wherever he was soaking, and put it on top of the table. You might grab some rest inbetween, because you must be honing for atleast an hour now, and your arms and concentraion are giving up. All rested? good. Let's continue. From now on, it is rather straight forward (pun intended). You repeat the same motion on the Norton stone, 4000 grit. After you are certan you have removed all of the 1200-2000 grit scratch marks, you flip the stone and repeat on the 8000 grit. The pressure should be a bit less, at around 0.5 to 1 pound. From now on, you should look at the edge, and visually check your progress. I like to see for that black polish all the way through the edge. If necesary, go back to the 4000. I don't do pyramides, I just go back when needed. It can take up to 30-40 on the 4000, and 50 on the 8000. Take this numbers loosely, I havent counted. Now, when finishing on the 4000 and the 8000 sides, you might start honing X pattern, you will get a better edge. I do it anyways. If not, keep straight, and post the results. The last two razors I have done this way shaved me great right off the 8000 side, with no returning to the stone. First try. I must be getting good at this honing business...
Now, I will say this: The straight push along the Norton with angled blade is not a honing method. Atleast, it is a fauly one. That is method for restoring straight edge back to it's intended state, and after doing this, the regular X pattern should be used, no matter how hard it is to learn. It will impart a very slight curve, which as Joe said, can be controlled with pariall honing. The X pattern is the only way barber's association advocates in their books and manuals, and that is derived from years of experience.
Now, those beautifull curves...
You cannot establish or maintain the curved edge on the razor with the above described method. It will make your razor ugly, and less functionall. So, here is the dilemma. Either learn to hone X pattern, holding the razor with one hand, or start saving for someone to do that every time your razor starts to pull. Honning X pattern, the olny right way is described in the barber's manuals, found in help files here. I won't describe it in detail...
Rock and Roll...
This method was mentioned by our dear member Xman, some of you might conlude he developed the X pattern, by his name, but nooo, that is not the case ;) I don't think this method is necesary, if you do the X honing right. Start honing with slover, deliberate motion, to paraphrase "be one with the blade" and you will develop a feel what part of the hone is honing more, less, not evenly. For extremely curved blades, bring the tip of the razor more to the edge of the hone, some 3/4 of inch should stay on the hone. That should take care of it.
Now, I'm sorry for the longish post, and I hope I made things more clear (or muddy, it's good to, it makes you think) for some of you...
In Lynn's words: Have fun. And thanx to Lynn who made all this possible...
Nenad.
oh, btw, my DOVO Micarta is shaving me jeest fine now, after 1 year of trial and error, and it's among my favorite shavers...;)
This has been an intersting thread!:) Thanks to all for the contributions. Now I will set back and read it all again and get back to you all in a week or two!:) I hope we have not scared the new guys away!
oh, thanx to Randy who pointed me to using various grits of sandpaper, and the straight push in one of our Skype phone talks. As always, I enjoyed Randy's knowledge and wisdom...
Appendix to my already long post:
I never use the straight push after the edge is reestablished. When I get that part done, I refresh my razor with normal X pattern honing.
thanx,
Nenad
As I've said coming off the close edge of the hone using the 'X' pattern always gets me. It only takes one twitch and there goes my whole edge. With the heel leading, the whole edge can be supported by the stone at all times if there are minor fluctuations in my grip, and with the straight razor edge even microscopic changes will have an effect. And the rolling is NOT scything, the rolling change occurs in the vertical plane only and not the horizontal plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
What you say about using two hands to help stabalise sounds good, but it has consistently failed to provide me with a shaving edge. Just my experience.
I don't claim to be a honing expert, but I do have about 100 successful razors under my belt, and three quarters of them have restored edges. Some were badly chipped, and some were poorly honed when I got them. There have been a few, not many, where I was unable to restore to a planar edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
I have many Dovos, mostly bought new, including a Micarta which was not. I also have many other brands that I bought NOS or new, including the SRP TI and a few other TIs. All the razors I've seen that are new or NOS are close enought o flat to be honed without a problem. If I received a new one as far off as you describe, I would return it.
I also have quite a few razors honed by Lynn, David Uthe, Bill Ellis, Tony Miller (hierphoto), John Crowley, Robert Williams, and probably a few honemeisters I've forgotten. Every one of those razors will match up exactly (by eye) with a flat surface. I also have razors that were honed with a smile, for example, a new Phillie, and they too will line up on a flat surface. I would venture to say that every razor I own probably does, except those that were ruined by poor honing. Even then, I have been able to restore many a blade. And it's not nearly as tough as you suggest if you use diamond hones. So, I'm not prepared to say it's impossible or even difficult. And I surely wouldn't discourage a newbie from trying to maintain a flat edge on a razor he bought new.
Before you say that the straight push along a hone is not a honing method, look at some of the European (German) sites, where it's used almost exclusively (usually two handed). Since you mentioned Brian Donofrio, he also does it that way. You will find very few, if any, really old razor hones (and no barber hones) that are wide. That was the main reason for the x-pattern. The barber manual also shows the tooth pattern it produces, and that pattern is especially well suited for shaving with the tip leading or with a slight sliding motion, which is what they recommend. Those are the only two real benefits for using the x-pattern.
The scratch pattern is duplicated by heel leading when you hone straight across. You can look under a microscope and you will not be able to distinguish the two patterns, assuming you use uniform pressure with both. The only reason for the leading heel is to duplicate the scratch pattern. An inexperienced honer will find it easier to hone uniformly by keeping the entire blade on the stone all the time. He can do that and get the same scratch pattern as the x-pattern by leading with the heel (not 45 degrees, but closer to 20, just like the x-pattern does). As a second choice I would recommend straight across, and the x-pattern would be third, just based on the ease of honing uniformly.
We all have learned the x-pattern at some time. I use it a lot because I use a lot of narrow narrow hones. But when I have a wide one, I'll go to a full surface push across the stone. If you look at some of Lynn's old posts you'll find a discussion of honing in circles when you need to remove a lot of material. When he does that, he lines up the blade with the lenght of a narrow hone so he contacts the entire edge at one time.
You are not doing a favor for newbies by discouraging them from trying full edge honing. Rather, I would suggest they try it and see if it isn't easier for them, since we recommend the wider stone anyway.
I didn't want to give the impression that I don't use the x-pattern. Since I use barber hones a lot, especially for refreshing, I have no choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
One type of hone I've been using a lot lately is the different grits of Spyderco. Those hones are long and narrow. For better control on along x-pattern, I hold the handle with my pinkie to support it's wieght and place my index finger on the spine. As I move the hone, I slide the index finger up the spine to keep it centered on the hone's width. It keeps the blade flat with pressure more uniform and avoids mishaps at the near edge.
OK, I now see the problem in our comunication. The razors we are talking about are all flat, meaning they are not warped. But, if there is a curve (smile) to the edge, only small part in the middle of the blade will touch the hone. I have no intention explaining simple geometry to you. Here's a simple test: take your favorite WB Meatchopper, the one with large curve to the edge, lay it flat on the stone, and look at the edge carefully. The middle of the edge is touching the hone, but not the hell and toe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
He also trues the stone after every razor, and strops flipping the razor over the edge...Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
No german site advocates that. Norbert is honing with straight push, but diagonal motion on a small width hone, same thing as the X pattern move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
I see this can go on forever, because you and I talk different language. Newbies can read the posts, try out different methods and see what works best for themelves. When I first found this site, I was the only one asking questions. I had no reference to look at. A big thank you goes to Randy and Kelly who were patient enough to answer them all. Newbies can also benefit from reading the honing forum from the beggining, instead of posting treads that start with "I'm sure this has been answered before, but..." Oh, another thing. The X pattern has not appered out of necesity, because the hones were narrow (nonsence, you think there was no way to make them bigger?) but it was the other way around, they were narrow to suit the X pattern honing style.
Also, this is my last post to this thread.
Nenad
Great thread everyone.
The pushing at 45deg using wet and dry to get an initial edge seems very sound to me, followed up by the x pattern.
Now a question. I find it hard to feel that I'm not tipping the tang down (or lifting for that matter) when doing the x pattern. If I use the lightest touch on the toe so as to feel that the blade is not lifting (forefinger in the ground part) is this OK. I do mean a very light touch just for sensory feedback, nothing else.
I also do not flip the razor over on it's spine, I lift it totally off the hone, turn, replace and carry on in the other direction. Anything wrong with this ?. I do ensure I lift and replace flat without the edge hitting first of course.
Comments welcome..please....
Gary
That is what Joe is advocating and there seems to be nothing wrong with it unless you are like me in which case it will stymie the achievement of an edge. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by garythepenman
Nothing, as long as the edge rotate upward away from the hone and not down toward the hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by garythepenman
X
Thanks X
Gary
Don't make any assumptions about my technical background. You might be surprized. But I guess you're just too smart for me, so do explain the geometry. But first I should tell you I have one of those new Fillie 7/8s that classic shaving is selling out, and it was cut with a pronounced smile, but guess what- the entire edge lies flat on a flat surface, except at the extreme ends (which would come into the plane after a little bit of honing). Frankly, this is what I expected to happen. But just to check I tried a few W&Bs with the curved spines and smiling edges. Their edges contact a flat surface entirely, but I did hone them some to restore them. But that was enoughto make the entire edge planar, without losing the smile. It's only when you cut the edge non-planar or make the smile too extreme that it won't touch a flat surface. I also checked at least 20 non-smiling razors, some restored by me, some new, and some honed by various honemeisters. Every edge contacted a flat surface along its entire length. Geometrically, an extreme curve will only contact a flat surface at its center, but none of the smiles were that extreme. As I said, with the new blade only the very ends didn't contact.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
If you mean honing with the edge leading I agree, but they also don't get the benefit of the angled scratch lines, a minor one. I added that to simulate the x-pattern scratch lines, and like I said, you couldn't tell the difference. I'll bet on it.Quote:
No german site advocates that. Norbert is honing with straight push, but diagonal motion on a small width hone, same thing as the X pattern move.
I did a bit of research and found nothing conclusive. If you have any definitive information, let me know. But I did find that there were only narrow hones (including those used for knives) until fairly recently, and of course the babrber hones had to be smallish and were narrow. Probably the wide hones were too expensive to make. I don't doubt that they were not impossible to make. Even today you pay a premium for a wide hone. The x-pattern is not such a big deal that hones would be made to accomodate it. The Germans, who hone straight across do not get the engled scratch lines and manage very well without it.Quote:
The X pattern has not appered out of necesity, because the hones were narrow (nonsence, you think there was no way to make them bigger?) but it was the other way around, they were narrow to suit the X pattern honing style.
Honestly, the angle doesn't make much sense when you're first creating the edge. It's purpose is to simulate the angled scratch lines of the x-pattern. When you're working with something like a 1000 grit, you're removing material, and there will be no remnant of those scratch lines when you're done. For example, Lynn recommends a honing circular pattern for fast material removal. That won't give you anything like the scratch lines you want to end up with. I would say don't worry about the angle until you're completing the edge on the 4K. THe sandpaper is a substitute for a coarse grit hone. There have been warnings that it has a very slight give and may cause some edge rounding.Quote:
Originally Posted by garythepenman
No problem there. You can even use the second hand as long as you don't affect the pressure. What I do with a narrow hone is put the index finget on the spine ore even on the flat side of the blade to make sure it's flat. He finger stays over the widthwise middle of the hone, and I slide the blade under it as I do the x-pattern.Quote:
Now a question. I find it hard to feel that I'm not tipping the tang down (or lifting for that matter) when doing the x pattern. If I use the lightest touch on the toe so as to feel that the blade is not lifting (forefinger in the ground part) is this OK. I do mean a very light touch just for sensory feedback, nothing else.
The only problem there is a potential one. If the edge accidentally touches the hone as your turnning the blade, it can send you back to square one. Turnning over the spine is considered the preferred way. As you get better, you may move smoother and quicker. The slighttest inattention when you turn your way can have a disastrous result. If you're just starting out, it would be best to learn the preferred way.Quote:
I also do not flip the razor over on it's spine, I lift it totally off the hone, turn, replace and carry on in the other direction. Anything wrong with this ?. I do ensure I lift and replace flat without the edge hitting first of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
Joe, I have reread my post, and see that I sounded bad and offensive. I apologize for that. Sometimes, sentances translated from my language to English don't sound right. What I ment was "I don't want to offend you by explaining simple geometry".Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Here it is:
On the folowing pics is pictured a razor with curved edge, layed on, say, Norton 8000 hone. For the ease of seing things more clearly (literary, that is) the curve at the edge is exagerated. Remember, same thing happens when that curve is smaller. The modeling is done mathematicaly, so nothing is freehanded, or assumed. The model is lighted with real bouncing light, where light is pointed to the object, and then it's rays are traced bouncing of the objects to create physicaly accurate light. In other words, what you see is what you get in real life.
Pic1. Razor and stone. Here you start to see my point, but not very clear, so let's zoom in.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...ZC/WBCrv_1.jpg
Pic2. Here it is more visible. Observe the shadow the razor is making on the stone. Now, the razor lays flat on the stone, like when honning. Notice how only the middle portion of the blade is toching the stone? Same thing happens in real life, only in different scale. That was what I was talking about.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...ZC/WBCrv_2.jpg
Pic3. Tip section:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...ZC/WBCrv_4.jpg
Pic4. Toe section:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...ZC/WBCrv_3.jpg
New post, there are only 4 pics allowed in one msg...
Pic5. Isometric view at the toe section, front. You can see by what amount the toe is missing the hone:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image.../WBCrv_Toe.jpg
Pic6. Same, tip:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image.../WBCrv_Tip.jpg
Pic7. Razor and hone, different point of view...
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image.../WBCrv_All.jpg
Nenad
Superfly!:)
Absolutely outstanding graphic work! You have illustrated your point exceptionally well.
Good work,:)
Great presentation Superfly! I'm sure it will help everyone visualize this better.
I'm having trouble with this site again, so I'll make it short.
Your model also demonstrates what I said. The smile should not be too big. I would consider that a flaw, because it will cut your beard unevenly and can even cause nicks. Of all the smiling razors I checked, only the new Fillie had a smile that did not touch a flat surface over its entire length (see my message). It missed at the very ends, but with a small amount of honing (to come). It , too, will be planar.
If you wanted to keep an extreme smile, you could not do it with straight across honing. In fact you couldn't do it with a straight x-pattern. The more extreme the smile, the more you need to shift or scythe the blade to keep the bevel and spine bands a constant width. Or you could do it as the barber manual demonstrates by pressure variation. That requires a bit of skill to keep a nice smooth curve.
BTW, I did not invent the heel leading honing. I just discovered it for myself when I discovered why barbers were taught to produce angled scratch lines. Then I found that quite a few people on the shaving sites use it. It is a good way to take advantage of a wide hone, and it's an easy way to learn to hone evenly. Once you understand that and see how you can produce an even edge you can continue it or learn other techniques. I'll admit it's a little slower than straight across or the x-pattern. I find I don't use it that much anymore because I do my maintenance with barber hones or other narrow hones.
I am somewhat reluctant to add to this thread since a) I am a honing beginner and b) tempers are pretty heated up already ;), but here are my thoughts and I would like to know what more experienced people think about them:
- While Nenad's images look amazing, I believe they are not 100% accurate (at least not for a smile created through honing) because the spine seems to be of the same thickness throughout. I would assume that the spine should be thickest in the middle and tapering out towards heel and toe.
- I believe that the smile is a self-regulating mechanism. The more pronounced it is, the higher the tendency of the hone to take away the belly, and thus, reduce it. You would have to put in a lot of effort (maybe including lifting the spine) in order to create a very pronounced smile
- Once you start honing straight with an angle and heel leading, you cannot go back to simple straight honing because the heel portion of the spine would not hit the hone in the former and would subsequently lift the heel part of the edge in the latter.
Redwoood