Cost effective hone purchase

I am relatively new to the straight razor and had a question about a new hone purchase. I already have a nice set of Japanese waterstones that I have had for years that go up to 6K. I have used them with good results on my razor. However, I have found that I can only get my razor so sharp. I can get it to where it BARELY passes the HHT, and results in a smooth, tug free shave as long as I go with the grain. However, I can't go against the grain with out massive snagging and pain. I assume the razor just isn't sharp enough as it is duller than a set of DE blades I got for comparison. I think that if I get another, finer stone I can get a better edge and shave. What do you recommend? I know the Norton 4K/8K is popular, but it costs ~$70. I can also get another Japanese waterstone of 8K or 12K for ~$70. Which is a better use of the $70? Or is there another alternative that can improve my edge for the same price, or cheaper? I am a poor grad student trying to support my family of four on my stipend, not a good time to get into the straight razor hobby...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

Texan,
You ave several choices. If you already like Japanese stones you could just go the finer route with another Japanese but these do cut much slower than a Norton. Most guys here go the Norton route as it handle most straight razor tasks in a single stone from restoration to edge maintenance. Many go right from the Norton to the strop and shave. Most I think choose to further refine of polish the edge and use another finer choice after the Norton but before the strop. If you want to go finer than the 8K though there are other otpions. You could get an inexpensive barbers hone, maybe a Lithide that would be finer than the Norton. There are also Belgian and Escher (German) stones that are very fine but these are both pricey, colector grade stones, particularly the Eschers. Pasted paddles work very well for many. A 2 or 4 sided wooden paddle with leather on each side and an abrasive applied will add a final polish and can be used to refresh a razor between honings. I use Amplex diamond paste on mine (The Well Shaved Gentleman) and there are also Thiers-Issard and Dovo pastes as well as some abrasive and bench strop options from Hand American.

I'm sure the gang will chime in soon with their impressions with all of these choices. All will work, none will take yoy down the worng path. Just pick one that sounds like a good plan for you.

Best,
Tony

If you aren't already, keep an eye on the sell and trade forums here as well as on shavemyface.com and badgerandblade.com

You could probably get a complete assortment of barbers hones for a song and use them though they are more difficult to work with than the Norton but if money is a problem thats a way to go. The other alternative is to send out your razors to one of the honemeisters here and once you know its wicked sharp then use a paddle strop with pastes to keep them sharp. You could go a long time before needing another expert sharpening that way.

You usually get what you pay for. Devil's advocate. :D

X

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You could probably get a complete assortment of barbers hones for a song and use them though they are more difficult to work with than the Norton but if money is a problem thats a way to go....[snip] ....

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Hi there bigspendur!

The idea that barber hones "are more difficult" depends entirely on who is using them. Several members, who are first rate honemeisters, who posted way back when the original SRP forum was starting out, hold an entirely contrary view. They have told me personally that Nortons didn't work for them. Other genuine honemeisters consider Nortons too aggressive for straight razors. That doesn't mean, however, that Nortons are more difficult to use, or that you can't use them. Some members here are masters at using them and do a superlative job. But these days, there are lots of new members using Nortons based the prevailing group mythology concerning barber hones. Some are posting very regularly, and repeating these remarks, having never used any themselves, or at best having used them only occassionaly or experimentally. All it takes are remarks like these to be repeated by a few members who happen to post regularly, for many new members to assume that what they are saying is objective fact. This is hardly the case.

Against the current opinion being blindly propagated here, I will offer my opinion. (it's an opinion so please don't believe me, but if you want to find out, you're going to have to commit yourself to the time, effort and patience needed to master barber hones, which BTW unlike the Nortons, were designed specifically for straight razors, not industrial tools.)

If you're concerned about cost effectiveness, nothing can beat purchasing some hones from Tilly. Once again she is offering some nice hones listed on e-bay with rock bottom BIN prices. Unbelievable, when you consider that these are NOS classic barber hones that can neither be replaced nor reproduced. The knowledge and skill required to make them have been lost forever with those who have long since passed on. Tilly with her terrific service and extensive knowledge, in offering these hones at affordable prices, has made a considerable contribution to the straight razor community. As X man says, you will "get what you pay for", but what you get, may not be what you want.

Just my two cents worth.... da ching...

Hal

It may be more cost-effective to just get the Norton. I got the Japanese slipstones b/c I wanted to save money and they did the job, but now I also have a Norton. If you're into honing, chances are you'll buy it eventually. Especially if you're getting and restoring old blades. You want to have a faster cutter. That doesn't mean that the Norton will remove a nick in 2 strokes, but it will work a heck of a lot faster than the Japanese alternatives.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

It may be more cost-effective to just get the Norton. I got the Japanese slipstones b/c I wanted to save money and they did the job, but now I also have a Norton. If you're into honing, chances are you'll buy it eventually. Especially if you're getting and restoring old blades. You want to have a faster cutter. That doesn't mean that the Norton will remove a nick in 2 strokes, but it will work a heck of a lot faster than the Japanese alternatives.

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Firestart,

Good to hear you are enjoying your Norton and getting good results. I learned on a Norton too, but eventually sold mine, long after opting to spend the extra time to master barber hones. And I'm still learning. There is so much to learn, with so many different types of hones, different razors with different problems etc.. I've successfully restored quite a few razors and some pretty dull ones too using only barber hones. Admittedly, it takes longer but I'm in no hurry. Besides, not all barber hones cut slowly; I have a couple that will cut every bit as fast as the Norton 4000. But I'm in no need of a quick fix. On the contrary, I took up this lost art simply because I wanted to slow down and learn to take my time in order to be more mindful. However, if you have something that required removing lots of steel (like a nic in the blade edge) you could use a DMT extra fine (but you've got to know what your are doing or you may well ruin the blade) and follow up with a sequence of barber hones with good results. As I see it, (and this is just my opinion and preference) there would be no need to eventually get a Norton.

Hal

In my case, I'm getting lots of blades and doing a lot of honing, so I am in need of a fast cutter. It is the general concensus here that Norton is the best for the job. I may even get the 1000. I also like to slow down, but at the same time, it gets frustrating when it takes forever to hone a nick or a pit out of an edge. Norton takes less time and I am still honing instead of taking my blades to some miracle high-tech solution. I admire your interest in barber hones and I have nothing against them. Don't count me out of giving them a shot eventually.

Thanks for all the advice, very helpful. It sounds like the 8K Norton would definately be an improvement over what I currently have both in terms of speed and quality of edge. But it also sounds like to get something "wicked sharp" you need something above the 8K, whether it be a barber hone, pasted strops, or a super expensive high grit stone. My new question is if I can go straight from my 6K stone to one of those three options, or if I really need to hit the 8K stone first. I must admit that I kind of like the idea of barber hones, but I have seen on other places on this site that barber hones can be quite iffy when it comes to quality. What are your thoughts?

To Xman, I understand you get what you pay for, but that's my concern, I don't mind spending some money up front, but I want to make sure that it will actually be a decent improvement over my 6K stone, and I am hoping that if I buy the proper item I can get my razor sharp enough to get that high quality shave everybody raves about.

Firestart, at this point, I'm not too interested in razor restoration because I can't even get my new razor sharp enough. However, I have noticed from sharpening other items on my japanese water stones that using the proper grit at the proper point will result in very fast sharpening, but if you move to the high grits too fast, it will take eternity to sharpen a blade. Of course this doesn't come from straight razor sharpening, that may be a different world...

I'm by no means one of the experienced honemeisters here, but I think I may be able to provide at least some useful information :)

The current setup I have is a norton 4k/8k and one of Tony's 4-sided pasted paddle strops with 3µ 1µ 0.5µ and 0.25µ pastes. My process so far has been to use the norton to bring the edge to the point where the geometry is consistant and will pass the HHT, not perfectly and everytime, but passable. Then I move to the pasted strop with maybe 10 strokes a side. By the time I'm done with the paddle, the razor usually is popping hairs with a vengeance. I can certainly say that the pasted paddle is a wonderful finisher after my norton; and, works equally well for refreshing blades when they start to dull out after several shaves.

Another thing I noted when making my decision with the pastes was comparing the particle sizes of hones. From comparitive grit charts, a norton 8k is approx 1µ particle size (if I remember correctly). But, I find that I get a keener edge on the 1µ paddle than with the norton 8k.

I hope I've provided some useful info to help you make your decision. I would certainly recommend a pasted paddle for use after a norton 8k. I think it would work well for after a japanese 6k, but, seeing as I've never used one, I just can't say for sure.

ToxIk,
Remember, you don't need to use all of the sides every time. The 3 and 1 micron sides are similar to the Norton sides and can be a substittute when looking for a quick refresh. The 0.5 and 0.25 are the most often used sides if you already have a Norton. The others are nice if not using a Norton.

Tony

Thanx Tony. I gathered as much.
Usually when I'm "refreshing" a blade, I'll do just a few (2-3) passes on the 1µ then the 0.5 and 0.25... But sometimes, I just can't help myself and dive in at the 3µ :shrug::D

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Originally Posted by texan

Thanks for all the advice, very helpful. It sounds like the 8K Norton would definately be an improvement over what I currently have both in terms of speed and quality of edge. But it also sounds like to get something "wicked sharp" you need something above the 8K, whether it be a barber hone, pasted strops, or a super expensive high grit stone. My new question is if I can go straight from my 6K stone to one of those three options, or if I really need to hit the 8K stone first. I must admit that I kind of like the idea of barber hones, but I have seen on other places on this site that barber hones can be quite iffy when it comes to quality. What are your thoughts?

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If you're getting a decent edge from the 6k then I'd say you're close to home. I actually find the 4k instrumental in getting some nice teeth. I don't know if I'd say it's the most important step, but certainly one of them. The 8k refines that nicely for me and although I do like to do some work to get it a little keener it is only a very little amount on the higher grits. Perhaps a few passes on some 1µ or 0.5µ paste is all you need. I remember reading recently about someone who went from a 6k to a few passes on a 10k for refinement and was getting good shaves (can't remember who). A lot depends on you and how you relate to your equipment.

Something to consider though: I like to think of the edge as having a depth of layers. Each successive grit cutting into the existing pattern. As a visual representation ...

4k = AAAAA
8k = ^^^^^
12k = """""
4+8 = A^A^A^A^A
4+8+12 = A"^"A"^"A"^"A"^"A

Too much work on a higher grit will erase the work of the lower grit. I don't think that is beneficial. I'm going to trade in my 10x eye loupe for a 25x to see if I can literally see if I'm right.

X

Tex: The 8k Norton is actually more expensive than the 4k/8k combination and the Norton 4k is one of the fastest cutters on the market. You may want to consider it when you go hone-shopping.

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Originally Posted by texan

But it also sounds like to get something "wicked sharp" you need something above the 8K,

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I'd disagree on this one big time.

Granted my experience is limited to this versus the veterans who've been at it for years and years, but all I have is the norton 4k/8k combo stone and I've been getting some wicked smooth shaves out of the ones I've honed recently.

I take out any nicks and even the blade on the 4k side, then I go a few rounds with the pyramid scheme discussed in the help files. If I don't like the shine on the cutting edge I'll add a few extra strokes on the 8k side of the norton at the end. My last few razors I've honed have been so sharp that I didn't have enough beard growth to shave for 2 days after I shaved with them.

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Originally Posted by xman

Too much work on a higher grit will erase the work of the lower grit. I don't think that is beneficial. I'm going to trade in my 10x eye loupe for a 25x to see if I can literally see if I'm right.

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Presuming that what you mean is to clearly see the actual teeth/striations that the abrasives form on the steel... I think you're going to need something abit more powerful than 25x to see if your right :) and by more powerful, I mean pushing the limits of optical microscopy.
I have a 60-100x microscope, and although it's optics are far from stellar, it still does allow me to see much more detail in the edge. Of course I can't actually see the teeth of the steel (unless, maybe it's 220grit), but, I can make out some detail about how much work each grit of stone resides on the steel. Now, even at 100x the stria are still so small that I can't see them, but when looking at the edge as a whole, I find that the edge will more or less reflect light differently and with differing intensity depending on which abrasives were last used.
That's one of the few levels of detail I can achieve at 100x, so, if your planning to be able to see all that at 25x, you better have eyes better than a hawk :p

To keep your costs at a miimum and stiill get the shaving edge that you want and be able to maintain it with a minimum learning curve go for the 4 sided, pre-pasted paddle strop from Tony Miller at www.thewellshavedgentleman.com . Using this will allow you to continue to use the hones that you have.
Later, when you have more discretionary cash you can play with the barber hones or the Nortons or whatever.

Hope this helps,:)

Thanks, guys. I think I have pretty much decided that the 4 sided pasted strop is my surest bet. Although I am really tempted by the barber hones. A lithide finishing hone on ebay for 15 bucks designed "especially for straight razors"...

Hal, you seem quite knowledgeable in this area, what do you think about the lithide finishing hones sold by Tilly on ebay? Do they really give an edge that can compete with a .25 micron pasted strop, assuming one knows what one is doing?

Another option is to hang outside my kitchen window cause any day now I'm going to throw my norton 4000/8000 out of it :mad: !!! Just watch out for the glass and razor that follows.
(Note though it's not the stone that's the problem, it's the user)

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Originally Posted by drsch3

Another option is to hang outside my kitchen window cause any day now I'm going to throw my norton 4000/8000 out of it :mad: !!! Just watch out for the glass and razor that follows.
(Note though it's not the stone that's the problem, it's the user)

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you got yahoo and a web cam? a few minutes working via web cam may help a honemeister help you get the hang of what you need.

Since you only need finer grits, a barber hone or two, or a two sided barber hone would be the ideal, cost-effective solution. They work fine and you can get them with various rates of cut.

As a minimum, I would get something like a Swaty. It's very fine and relatively fast and perfect for refreshing an edge.

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Originally Posted by texan

Thanks, guys. I think I have pretty much decided that the 4 sided pasted strop is my surest bet. Although I am really tempted by the barber hones. A lithide finishing hone on ebay for 15 bucks designed "especially for straight razors"...

Hal, you seem quite knowledgeable in this area, what do you think about the lithide finishing hones sold by Tilly on ebay? Do they really give an edge that can compete with a .25 micron pasted strop, assuming one knows what one is doing?

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You're asking for the impossible. The .25 micron is like 100K. The finest hone I've seen is 30K and you'll have to mortgage your home to buy it.

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Originally Posted by FUD

you got yahoo and a web cam? a few minutes working via web cam may help a honemeister help you get the hang of what you need.

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I've had advice from xman (much appreciated) and am working throught it.... slowly. It's not that bad really :)

Oh it's even worse... Too much trouble.. Just send the hone over here for proper disposal :D Actually I just got a Norton and now I'm using it on 2 projects:
1) Removing some nicks/pitting from my new Maleham & Yeomans that I got from Tony Holmes. Down to 1 partially gone pit before I take start it up on the pyramid.
2) Getting a shaving edge onto the Walker -- the bane of my existence.

Man I really must be out of the "fine tuning" arts. The norton 4k/8k gives me a really sharp edge. Stropping properly seems to bring out the edge. I'm personally ok with having to sharpen a blade once or twice a year.

Aside from not having to visit the waterstone "quite" as often, what exact beneft do all these barber hones and pasted strops provide? I've used the shave-ready Cattaraugus I got from Lynn as the standard for a good shave and I personally think I've gotten really good shaves with my sharpening on the norton combo. It could be due to not experiencing the nirvana shave but If I'm not getting any pull and It's baby butt smooth when I'm done I consider that a really good shave.

So what's the barber hones do? Help it take off a piece of the epidermis or something? :D Seriously though, please help me understand why it seems so important in this thread. The 8000 side of the norton is a polishing stone and if I don't get the good shine on the cutting edge with the standard pyramid I find an additional 5 or 10 swipes on the 8k side is more than sufficient and it shaves really good for me at a 20 to 30 degree angle.

While I'd like to get a 10k to try a better polish on the blade, I also worry about over honing that everyone seems to experience at some time or another.

So, if I'm getting that baby butt smooth shave off of one honed on the 4k/8k combo why should I be so concerned with getting a barber's hone or pasted strop? What's it going to do for me that I'm not getting now?

Thanks.

Glen F

Glen,
For you, or some people it may make no difference at all. Some depends on your beard and skin and just how sharp, or smooth you need it. I have had a few razors, honed by experst that simply would not shave me well unless I took it to a pasted strop first. I have had others, right from a Norton that did well. each is different and each responds differently to hones, stones or pastes.

If what you do works for you you are on the right path and probably don't need to change a thing.

For some learning to strop comes easily and honing is slow to master. For them pasted strops bring quick results. Other pick up honing quickly but need a smoother and/or sharper edge so go to either very fine stones (10k and up) or pastes.

None of the tools are the perfect answer. I had a terrible time learning to hone and may have simply given up had Ray not gotten me started with what he felt was an easy teach, a pasted paddle. Have a razor i could sharpen and keep sharp kept me going till I could learn more about honing. Some guys here are already experienced at honing and changing their technique a little to master a Norton will be the fastest and most sucessful for them.

If a person is serious enough about learning he will master whatever tool is at hand, be it a Norton, Japanese stone, Barber Hone or strop.

Tony

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Originally Posted by drsch3

I've had advice from xman (much appreciated) and am working throught it.... slowly. It's not that bad really :)

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*Tips hat appreciatively*

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Originally Posted by FUD

So, if I'm getting that baby butt smooth shave off of one honed on the 4k/8k combo why should I be so concerned with getting a barber's hone or pasted strop? What's it going to do for me that I'm not getting now?

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Do I ever hear you there brother. I just tried to touch up two DD Specials, one that was shaving decently and I wanted to take to the edge and the other that wasn't quite shaving as well. A few light 1/3 pyramid passes later followed by 3 swipes on a 12k Shapton, 24 laps on chromium oxide pasted 4" pocket paddle strop and 12 ultra light passes on 0.25µ tan leather side and I ended up with a wire edge on both!

I think a lot depends on where the edge is when you start and wonder how much has to do with what one is capable of achieving with the Norton 4k/8k. Perhaps my technique has suitably improved to the point where I am now getting off the 8k what I was seemingly needing the pastes to achieve before.

X

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Originally Posted by FUD

Man I really must be out of the "fine tuning" arts. The norton 4k/8k gives me a really sharp edge. Stropping properly seems to bring out the edge. I'm personally ok with having to sharpen a blade once or twice a year.


So, if I'm getting that baby butt smooth shave off of one honed on the 4k/8k combo why should I be so concerned with getting a barber's hone or pasted strop? What's it going to do for me that I'm not getting now?

Thanks.

Glen F

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Glen,

Are you serious you hone your razor only once or twice a year? How many different razors do you use in an average year?
And you don't even use a pasted strop? What's your secret???