Setting the Bevel

Greetings,

I have been playing with my coticule the past few days and have realised that i don't have a good handle on confirming when the bevel is correctly set.

for example...I have a reasonable condition hollow ground razor that I have been working on. The TNT feedback seems to be identical across the length of the edge - that of a light and smooth draw. It's biting but not a serrated sensation. However there is a clear difference in the toe end and heel of the blade when shaving arm hair. The heel end will shave arm hairs but not well. It misses hairs and pulls and tugs. The last inch toward the toe is much sharper seems to cut hair with much less effort.

I have realised at this point that I'm not sure exactly how well and easily the edge should conduct this arm shaving test. I know how easily a shave ready straight will shave arm hairs and it is far superior to where I am at. Should a set bevel deal with them in the same manner or just perform as I have at the toe end. Is shaving the hair as I have at the heel acceptable or not? i would think not but as a newb I am uncertain of where the edge should perform once the bevel is correct.

I don't have any magnification but perhaps I should try the marker test from here? I don't seem to be getting any more feedback from the TNT...at least not that I am sensitive enough to discern.

Try the marker test and see where you're missing the edge. I hone on coticules sometimes too, I know how to use them, please you can pm me if you need to.

Make sure your slurry is not thick, otherwise it will dull the edge more right after the edge hits its bevel limit and you won't realize it. This can make it seem like nothing is happening. Also watch the water to see how it glides over the edge, it should flow over the entire blade as you stroke through the stone.

Thanks mate. It is possible I dulled the heel section back as I let my slurry thicken a bit too much before I decided to call it quits for the day. I made a few bad strokes and restarted a couple of times and decided the concentration level had drifted at that point. It is pretty hot and dry where I am so it can get frustrating trying to keep the slurry at the right point to cut reasonably fast without getting too thick.

I did have the slurry undercutting quite well at one point, I had a nice uniform wave pushing out and also riding up the blade. of course I duffed a stroke at that point and lost it :gaah:

I have been making a few sets of 30 half strokes and then checking the way the slurry behaves with some X-strokes.

I'm still struggling with identifying the bevel limit as you put it. Any pointers of what is acceptable and when I can move onto the next stage of the unicot?

For me, the bevel is set when I can easily shave arm or leg hair all along the bevel. I usually check it in 5-6 places from toe to heel.

Don't move on until you can do this. You'll just be refining and polishing an inadequate bevel, which = a waste of time.

Ok i'd say i have that toe section in good order. I will try again this afternoon to bring the rest up to scratch and use the marker test to check my stroke.

I've been attempting to identify a properly set bevel by viewing the edge through 10X and continuing to take off steel on 1K until there are no reflections at all from where the edge should be. I also test on arm hair, but I'm running out of arm hair that I can reach comfortably without opening a vein.

My problems seem to be more at the toe than at the heel. I was seeing reflections from the edge on the toe yesterday long after they had disappeared on the heel. I know why this is, the blade not being flat on the stone. I was able to remedy this by extending my X pattern more than I had been, bringing the blade farther off the stone at the botton of the downward X. However, this process took hours on 1K, eventually requiring me to place a finger on the toe during circular strokes and apply pressure. The result was a much "taller" bevel than I wanted, with the bevel being taller than what I see on Shave Ready edges. As I finished through the pyramid with 4K, 8K, and 12K, and on to wool and diamond spray and leather stropping, the edge seemed fine, but the bevel was so shiny and "obvious" and seemed three times as tall as what I'm seeing on properly done blades.

It took me forever after breadknifing to get a bevel with 1K. We're talking hours here. I was concentrating on little pressure, circular and X strokes. I think that toward the end because of so little success I was probably applying more pressure than when I started and the full hollow ground blade was flexing and that accounted for the tall bevel. I'm going to give the next bevel set attempt a shot with my 220 grit in the hope that it will go quicker, get me a shallow bevel, and allow me to minimize pressure.

Fellas,

The sure way to know that you have a completely set bevel is to grind one side of the edge until you have formed a bur, then do the same to the other side. Gently remove the bur by lightly pulling the edge across a piece of paper, or a piece of wood, or your thumbnail, etc. and you're there. You can then continue with your honing steps.

Be careful & have fun,
Jeff

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Originally Posted by JeffR

Fellas,

The sure way to know that you have a completely set bevel is to grind one side of the edge until you have formed a bur, then do the same to the other side. Gently remove the bur by lightly pulling the edge across a piece of paper, or a piece of wood, or your thumbnail, etc. and you're there. You can then continue with your honing steps.

Be careful & have fun,
Jeff

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I absolutely beg to differ,,,

Never raise a burr on a razor it is not needed, nor recommended..

Take the bevel to a TNT and learn to read it then refine that edge to the AHT if possible for you, it isn't possible for everyone... But honestly we manged to set bevels without that test just 3 short years ago...
The TNT, and the TPT and finally the Shave test are the most important to learn for honing razors everything else is subject to interpetation...


Edit: Using a DE blade to learn the feel of the various tests is a good starting point for Newbs...

Totally agree.

I have seen a lot of problems in razors, particularly in spine and edge wear, including new ones being manufactured by one company that sets a burr in their process. Don't think knives with straight razors, think straight razors.

For me a bevel should feel like a sharp pocket knife across the entire edge. That means that it wants to grab my thumb pad as I take it across (NOT ALONG!!) the edge using the TPT. It usually can also shave arm hair pretty easily, but I have gotten more used to the TPT. The key is to keep the razor perfectly flat on the stone when you are doing strokes or circles unless you have an unevenly flattened spine in which case a 45 degree angle approach to circles or strokes will help. It is not uncommon for an older flattened razor to take a couple attempts to get the bevel set correctly.

Have fun,

Lynn

Thanks for the additional info guys. I don't think I will be trying to raise a burr JeffR.

I will try the tests with the DE blade for a point of reference. Am I right in assuming that a fresh DE is likely sharper than is neccessarily desirable for a straight and likely unattainable - especially for a nooba.

I am pretty confident that I have set the bevel on this razor after another session on the coticule. The razor readily shaves arm hair across the length of the blade. My half bald forearm is evidence of a bit of glee experienced at getting a blunt razor to this stage :)

I am going to try the unicot method from Coticule.be to finish the razor to shaving readiness from here. I am feeling a lot more confidence now that any errors I make can be corrected. I have made plenty of dud strokes along the way and some extra time or a refreshed slurry has remedied the problem. I was a bit concerned earlier in the piece that a bad stroke would do some sort of major damage to the razor.

Hopefully I can arrive at a shaving edge and put my razor to use soon.

+1 on the burr issue. I would never recommend raising a burr for a razor, knife honing is very different when it comes to these things.

Yea i agree Razor a little different the knifes.
We don't have a lot metal to waste.
i will stop in here.

I respectfully disagree. A razor is nothing more than a specialized knife. Unless a particular razor is an heirloom or rare collector item, there is no need to be careful with bevel setting. Unless one is going crazy with grinding on it, setting the bevel removes a trivial amount of metal.

I would suggest that regardless of sharpening method, and no matter how carefully done, when setting the bevel some bur formation is taking place, albeit a tiny amount. I applaud those experts who can hone in such a way that almost no bur is formed with regularity- they truly deserve the title, "honemeister."

Me, I'm not a "razor guy", nor am I a "knife guy", nor an "axe guy", nor a "machete guy", nor a "lawnmower blade" guy. I'm just a guy. I use and sharpen all of these things. And the only real difference I have found between them is the amount of metal removed. I don't suggest taking a razor to a bench grinder of course, but conversely there is no need to pussy-foot around with the once-every-decade task of restoring the bevel on any particular razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmallyetDeadly

:)

I am going to try the unicot method from Coticule.be to finish the razor to shaving readiness from here..

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Don't tie yourself to one specific dogma. I'm a little familiar with Bart's method. I don't agree with dragging the razor across a glass first, it's counterproductive imho. I like coticules and have many, You'll need to learn your stone, and how it performs with slurry and without. Once you know that, it's 90% of the battle. Check the edge as you go, there's no specific number of strokes. It's going to vary from stone to stone and blade to blade. It's a good starting point, but that's it. My two cents.

If you know the vein of the stone, I may know a bit more about it specifically.

I agree with zib, but even knowing the vein of your stone doesn't always help as there will be atypical stones in each vein as well as those that look like one vein and are in actuality from another.
Take the time, learn your stone. Each is unique and makes it difficult to diagnose issues from a distance thus why most people prefer to start on synthetics. I like my coticules and have tried quite a few others, but in my limited knowledge I can tell you that I would like any stone I have spent the time learning.
I'm glad that setting your bevel on the coticule is working for you and that you seem to be enjoying the time learning about it.
I find every method as a place to start then you can find a rhythm that fits with you and your stone.

lynn and everyone else know what they're talking about. I am in the same position as yourself, working out what a bevel is.

I took two dull razors and honed them until I got a bevel, its handy as one took 1 hour and the other took 4 hours gave me a better idea of different razors and sizes of razor and not all razors give the same sizes of edge as well .

the arm hair test is handy but its trial and error I thought I was finished a razor because it popped hair, then I looked at the edge and decided to go back and honed on the 1k for a little longer and now hairs fall off without pressure off the 1k, but every blade's different as already mentioned and I'm no expert but the two razor thing definitely helped me, if you get stuck on one you can switch to the other.

you'll definitely get there, just give it time

regards alex

Thanks for your further post Jeff. You certainly don't have to defend your methodolgy to me. If it works well for you that is all the vindication anybody needs.

I am enjoying playing wih my stone and I certainly don't expect to find any easy substitute for experience and practice. I believe it is a La Grise coticule from Ardennes.

I am happy to try the methods on Coticule.be. They are clearly aimed at the beginner like me with the unicot and the dilucot for more "seasoned" honers looking at a one stone solution. I see this honing caper a bit like learning to play golf. Sure you can take a club and whack away at balls but the learning curve will go much easier with some initial guidance and much frustration will be saved. As understanding and experience grows you begin to develop your own "swing". I think that makes sense?

I had a crack at the unicot method last night and shaved this morning for a perfectly SAS. I didn't reach the heights of keeness but the razor performed adequately to deliver an irritation and nick free shave. I have identified some areas I need to work on in my stroke and have a better idea of things than just a few days ago. Practice Practice Practice here we come. I am quite proud of being able to get a razor into shaving condition even if it is obviously not as sharp as it could be. Usually I am the guy who tries to sharpen a kitchen knife and his super edge is defeated by the first tomato it runs into :banghead:

Now I wonder if I should order a DMT 325/600 and have a go at some of my sadder ebay purchases :idea:

Thanks for all the help gang