Trouble finishing w quality J-nats

Wish I could blame the stones, but I can't. I bought the last two off Old School's old site. Both are Nakayamas, one an Asagi, the other a Kiita (with a little blue mixed in). I also have a third Nakayama from a trusted member here. These are all quality stones.

I've tried JimR's dilution (have all Asago Naguras); I've also tried plain water. For the life of me, I cannot equal what I get from my vinatge Thurris, cotis, or even my Nani 12K. After spending about an hour yesterday (just finishing!), I got the worst shave I've had (in terms of closeness) in over a year.

Any ideas? Questions?

Get rid of the problem, send them to me?

First things that spring to my mind: how much water are you using on them & how have they been lapped (if they have)? THe "Shoobie Doobie Asagi" thread talks lots about this. Are the edges harsh or just dull? WHat are you coming off of before going to the Jnat? Have you tried honing up to your 12k & then going to your stones w/ just a super thin film (a few drops really) of water? Give it a whirl & see what you get.

You're going to want to get a razor to a known condition 1st before you start experimenting. Keep us posted.

if you want I can test one of them for you. pm if interested.

What is your lapping routine before you put a razor to the stone?

I have no idea if this has anything to do with the problem but ..... I learned from Sham that some stones are best used for finishing razors that are already at a superlative level of sharpness. Since you accomplish great edges with your Thuringan follow that with some light round trips on one of the j-nats and see if that doesn't improve the already sharp/smooth edge. Worth a shot.

I have been playing a lot lately with japanese natural stones. What I have found is that when I first started I expected a bit much out of them. I would always think that I was spending enough time on them, turns out I wasn't. I just needed to allow more for slurry breakdown and for the natural process of the stones. In retrospect I was spending a lot of time on my naniwas beforehand.
Another situation I trusted that one of my stones was flat because of the seller, but Glen diagnosed that in about half a hummingbird's blink. A few minutes later and I had a razor suctioned to my face.
I also find that learning two stones and multiple techniques at once elongates the process from learning each individually. I tried learning 3 different honing techniques at once a while ago and it was frustrating to no end.

Where are you starting your J-Nat work? When I got started on J-Nats I finished the edge to about 16K like I normally do then went to my J-Nat, which was a finisher. This helped me establish a feel for the stone before I started using different naguras and other techniques.
Take care,
Richard

Well, there is no "JimR dilution". Dilution is not necessary in the system I use.

What happens when you use the nagura? I mean, how doe the bevel change, do you ever get a good armhair/HH test? You need to determine at what point the problem is occurring. Here's what I recommend.
"Reset" the edge by slightly breadknifing on glass a bit, then start on Botan nagura. Don't stop until you get a good bevel--at least shaving armhair, if possible starting to pop it above the skin. This is where sharpness comes from--if you don't do this right, then you won't get a sharp edge.

Don't move on until you get that.

Then, on to the next level of nagura (Mejiro or Tenjou) and do not move on until hair starts popping easily above the skin.

Do not move on until then.

Then, move on to the next level. If you have a Koma, use it, if not then tomonagura. At this point, you want to get as smooth an edge as possible.

How long have you been trying, by the way?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimR

Well, there is no "JimR dilution". Dilution is not necessary in the system I use.

What happens when you use the nagura? I mean, how doe the bevel change, do you ever get a good armhair/HH test? You need to determine at what point the problem is occurring. Here's what I recommend.
"Reset" the edge by slightly breadknifing on glass a bit, then start on Botan nagura. Don't stop until you get a good bevel--at least shaving armhair, if possible starting to pop it above the skin. This is where sharpness comes from--if you don't do this right, then you won't get a sharp edge.

Don't move on until you get that.

Then, on to the next level of nagura (Mejiro or Tenjou) and do not move on until hair starts popping easily above the skin.

Do not move on until then.

Then, move on to the next level. If you have a Koma, use it, if not then tomonagura. At this point, you want to get as smooth an edge as possible.

How long have you been trying, by the way?

---

Sorry, of course you're correct. I meant adding a little water to the toma nagura stage at the end. Mostly I've been using Naniwas to get the blade to cut hair above the skin and pass HHT, then I've been moving on to Koma, then an asagi slurry (diluting when it gets thick), and trying just water after that, or water by itself. The edge seems to get duller. Again, I apologize for misrepresenting your method.

How long have I been trying? Maybe a dozen blades. I know that's a small number, just thought I would ask sooner rather than later.

To answer some other questions:

I have not lapped any of these stones. I hate to remove the kanji, and as some of you know, OS is not a big fan of lapping these stones. The Kiita has two finished surfaces, and I use the side without the Kanji when I use JimR's procedure. I can feel the ink underneath as I hone when I use the Kanji side(s). Maybe this is part of the problem.

I do get a good HHT 4 before going to the Nakayamas (Koma or Toma), off a Nani 12K. They seem to get duller.

Patience (as always) may be the main problem. I've gotten used to spending 30 minutes setting a bevel, sharpening, polishing, and finishing with the Naniwas. I'm probably rushing through the Botan-Tenjou-Majiro-Koma sequence, when I go that route. I always have a good bevel before I start that sequence, though.

I find my J-Nat is VERY slow. I did lap mine when I got it but not since. There weren't any kanji to protect as the previous owner had lapped it as well! :)

I do 25 strokes with a light slurry, 25 with a virtually water type slurry, 25 with water and then I wipe most o the water off and do a final 25 strokes. This give me wonderful edges which don't actually feel sharp on the skin but wipe the hairs away like they weren't there.

Mine is a Nakayama Maruichi by the way, and this approach seems to work very well for this particular stone.

Its a great stone and definitely my favourite finisher.

:) :) Did you guys happen to read through this thread from start to finish ????

Here is what I learned by doing just that,, I learned that either there are differences in Japanese naturals or there are a ton of different systems that work :hmmm:

Just like every single natural stone, each has a certain combination that is going to work, your job is to figure that sequence out...
Use a system that you are familiar with first, until you get a feel for the stone then expand that until you get the best edge...

I have listened to people on other forums tell me I am full of it when I tell them that it takes me 100 different razors on a stone before I even consider myself semi-proficient at it...
But I have learned that each natural stone has it's quirks and you need to learn them through time on the stone...

Embrace the challenge and take it slow one razor at a time.. In your case I would be coming off a known sharpness point first, say the 8k or 12k an simply try and improve that finish...

Try the slurry 3 different ways so you can learn the stone first use slurry made from your stone ie: use a DMT or such to raise the slurry, try No slurry, try diluting the slurry, and try letting the slurry go to almost dry see what the stone does first, then once you have that figured out, you can expand into using Nagura to change the properties of the slurry...

Buy a Swaty bro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pcb01

To answer some other questions:

I have not lapped any of these stones. I hate to remove the kanji, and as some of you know, OS is not a big fan of lapping these stones. The Kiita has two finished surfaces, and I use the side without the Kanji when I use JimR's procedure. I can feel the ink underneath as I hone when I use the Kanji side(s). Maybe this is part of the problem.

---

I don't know anything about using nagura but I do know that you'll get better results if you lap the stones. When I bought a Nakayma from a friend it had come from So and I knew it would be good. I checked it with a straight edge and it wasn't flat. I didn't lap it until I had done a half dozen razors on it. It did a good job but once I lapped it it did a better job. Take photos of the stones with the kanji and then lao them to realize their full potential. :gl:

Most of the answers are in the OP's post. He hasn't lapped the stones. Big problem. I have two stones from OS, both Maruichi Asagi, one with a Maruka stamp, great stones but slow. The one without the the Maruka, had to be lapped. The stone seemed to be glazed, and definitely wasn't flat. Take some pics, bit the bullet and lapp your stone. Decide whether or not you want an expensive paper weight or a functioning stones. Another thing OS always said was, "You can go from an 8k to these stones. He said that, not me. I routinely go up to either a 12k, an Escher, a Shapton 16k, even a Charnley. Keep the water the to a minimum. Too much water on a J nat kills it. Oh, and use a slurry. This will help big time. If you have no Tomonagura, use a DMT or the like. These stones are slow, no question. A hundred lapps is nothing. I do 100 and test. Like Glen said, Each Natural stone is unique, and needs to be learned.
More importantly, I had my OS stones evaluated by Max (Maxim) He said they are too soft to use Nagrua on, I believe'd him, and got the Shoobie Doobie...
I'd be glad to work with you, just drop me a pm.....

Rich

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pcb01

Wish I could blame the stones, but I can't. I bought the last two off Old School's old site. Both are Nakayamas, one an Asagi, the other a Kiita (with a little blue mixed in). I also have a third Nakayama from a trusted member here. These are all quality stones.

I've tried JimR's dilution (have all Asago Naguras); I've also tried plain water. For the life of me, I cannot equal what I get from my vinatge Thurris, cotis, or even my Nani 12K. After spending about an hour yesterday (just finishing!), I got the worst shave I've had (in terms of closeness) in over a year.

Any ideas? Questions?

---

My advice send your stone for testing. i can do so if you are willing to ship to MO. if anyone closer to you let them test.
Natural stones will act differently.
Ones i have test 28 razors in one stone to find out what this Japanese stone was doing.
Sometimes will take just one razor.

This is what makes this sport so much fun. We all have our own preferences.

I come off the 8K with my Japanese Naturals and normally will do 10 strokes on a light slurry using anything from the lightest Japanese nagura to a piece of Coticule for slurry. The strokes are no pressure. I then go to just water and do another 10 strokes. If needed I can dial in with 5 additional strokes or a couple of 5's if needed. This has worked with the Escher and Coticule too.

I would agree with Glen and I have been lucky enough to have a lot more razors to hone than most and I usually don't start opinionating on any particular stone unless I have had a lot of razors (usually a couple hundred) on it and tried various techniques.

I normally feel that when you are using a finishing stone, whether a 12K, 16, or Natural after something similar to an 8K that it is very hard to better the edge and in most cases you end up losing it when you go to another stone (personal opinion only).

Although some disagree, I generally find that weight of the blade pressure from the 8K stage through finishing plays a large part in the success of the final edge.

Have fun,

Lynn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lynn

Although some disagree, I generally find that weight of the blade pressure from the 8K stage through finishing plays a large part in the success of the final edge.

---

This was my problem, I finally listened and guess what? I now produce consistent edges...

Many thanks to all who have helped. Main points I take away are:

1. Lap the doggone stones. This won't be painful, since I have two surfaces without the Kanji.

2. Use less water. I pretty much have been puddling it up. Seems a couple of drops works for many.

3. Stick with one stone at a time. I have been switching around between them, treating them as if they were interchangeable. I see where that can be confusing me.

4. Be patient and systematic. I keep relearning this, then forgetting it again.

Having said all that, last night I did about 100 passes just on water with a Clauberg Bros (Solingen) that I'd previously finished on a Nani 12K. The edge went from average to superior. I know it's just superstition, but it seems that whenever I post here re some honing problem, the issue seems to resolve itself within a day or so -- which is one of the reasons I did the OP. I'm sure that by adopting your suggestions, me and the Nakayamas will learn to get along just fine (eventually).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zib

..., "You can go from an 8k to these stones. ...Rich

---

'Not even close to expert, but I had to do several hundred strokes (like an arkansas stone) to get an edge at first (N-asagi from So). I was trying to get max keenness before going to the asagi, so I gave it all I had on a c12k at the time. Oz suggested ditching the c12k and going from the 8k nani. It cut the number of required strokes by more than half. Now I go from coticule to asagi, and get good results from a slow stone. With the coti, it's been getting dilution rate right. The asagi is much more complex, dealing w/ a disintegrating slurry. From 8k to finish, I had best results with very little water (drops), and a light, misty slurry. It would have to clean and refresh the slurry 3x for best results. If it gets too keen/harsh, 4-6 strokes on the dry stone brings back it's manners.

'Loved Glen's post about doing your time. I've repeated his statement about 100 blades to begin your learning often. I don't have access to that many blades, but am determined to pay my dues, spend the time, get the feel in the hands, find what tricks work best with that steel and what stone. My first 6 mo, I honed 45 blades. From December 'til now, another 70 blades. I have two here now for others, 2 inbound, and am trying to get my hands on most any blade for the practice and experience. If you've acquired any beater blades, dull them and hone again, trying another variation. I agree w/ others - photograph the kanji, lap and chamfer. I had no choice, as my asagi had a chip that extended into the surface 5/8". I lapped to maximize a straight line, which involved lapping away some surface about 10 degrees from flat. That 10 deg fall away now serves to hone the concave side of blades that have a slight warp. 'Works very well, though challenging to stay light and smooth across the fall-away edge.

I try to explain with my poor English :)

First of naturals is not slow people just come of synthetic to soon, slow finisher means very fine finisher !

Nakayama Marukas come medium hardness or soft ! If you have very hard Nakayama Maruka it will cost you over 5k USD. They are to Rare and impossible to get ! I have one and still it is not as hard as Ozuku or Shoubu.

Softer stones need to be worked with mod and will be slower to achieve finer finish because they release bigger particles.

Flattening of hones is very very important !! And flattening them right ! The best method is flatten with another Natural !

Do not use Atoma or DMT to make slurry on your stone !!! That is confirmed by many stone sellers in Japan and Iwasaki him self !

Clean aria when you hone on super fine stones is very very important too make sure there is no dust or any other particles

When you get your hone to know 5 min of honing will be enough to get you razor sharp.

Naturals is very easy to overhone the razor and make it dull.


Hope it helps happy honing :)

Followed what I learned in the previous posts. I lapped both non-kanji surfaces w 400 then 800 wet/dry. Then finished by lapping them against each other (both approx the same size). Then did about 50 passes on the Kiita. The Wadsworth and Sons (Solingen made! -- that seems wrong). Got a good HHT after stropping. I'll shave with it tomorrow and post the results.

BTW, my Nakayamas seem pretty hard to me. Heavy thumbnail pressure leaves no trace whatsoever. Then again, they did lap pretty quickly (maybe 10 minutes each). Any other ways to determine? They do not slurry at all when using just water.

Anyway, thanks again to all who took their time to help me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxim207

Flattening of hones is very very important !! And flattening them right ! The best method is flatten with another Natural !

Do not use Atoma or DMT to make slurry on your stone !!! That is confirmed by many stone sellers in Japan and Iwasaki him self !

---

I hate to disagree but that never stopped me before... :)

Don't confuse Western razors with everything else, when you are honing everything else including Kamisori, I would agree with you, as the pressure is quite different and allows for the breakdown of the slurry...
Honing western razors this is simply not true, the pressure is much much much lighter or should be, and doesn't allow for the breakdown of the slurry...
As you must know it is the friable effect of the slurry that creates the finest edges on "most" of the Japanese naturals...

Now there are ways around this such as leaving the dried slurry on the stone after use but that poses other problems..
Using a DMT 325 OR 600 to raise a slurry allows for the plate to do much of the work before the Western razor touches the slurry..

Now all that I just wrote is a moot point if you are simply using your stone as a base to use a progression of Nagura and you are "honing" from start to finish on one stone, but if you are using that expensive finisher as a finisher, then this does come into effect...

Now you can believe what you please and use your stone as you chose but I think maybe you should try what I am saying on one or two of your stones before you discount it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I hate to disagree but that never stopped me before... :)

Don't confuse Western razors with everything else, when you are honing everything else including Kamisori, I would agree with you, as the pressure is quite different and allows for the breakdown of the slurry...
Honing western razors this is simply not true, the pressure is much much much lighter or should be, and doesn't allow for the breakdown of the slurry...
As you must know it is the friable effect of the slurry that creates the finest edges on "most" of the Japanese naturals...

Now there are ways around this such as leaving the dried slurry on the stone after use but that poses other problems..
Using a DMT 325 OR 600 to raise a slurry allows for the plate to do much of the work before the Western razor touches the slurry..

Now all that I just wrote is a moot point if you are simply using your stone as a base to use a progression of Nagura and you are "honing" from start to finish on one stone, but if you are using that expensive finisher as a finisher, then this does come into effect...

Now you can believe what you please and use your stone as you chose but I think maybe you should try what I am saying on one or two of your stones before you discount it...

---

I disagree on that. I do primely shave and hone with western razors.
And i used Dmt and Atoma before, not just on one or two stones :)

Kamisori do not require such hard stone as Western razors because they brake down particles much faster and they have swarf from soft steel that is used as polishing powder too.

DMT and Atoma make bigger scratches in stone it self then Tomo nagura will !
And it will make stone to relive bigger particles from the stone it self.
the smoother the service on the stone the less particles it will relive.
Because Japanese Naturals is not the grits but flacks and flacks brake down in thickness and not in size. That will mean that Atoma or DMT will destroy flacks in size and make thickness of the flacks bigger and make stone coarser !

I did try it on 100 or more Naturals stones so you dont have to convince me :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxim207

I disagree on that. I do primely shave and hone with western razors.
And i used Dmt and Atoma before, not just on one or two stones :)

Kamisori do not require such hard stone as Western razors because they brake down particles much faster and they have swarf from soft steel that is used as polishing powder too. We agree

DMT and Atoma make bigger scratches in stone it self then Tomo nagura will ! You are talking only one thing here
And it will make stone to relive bigger particles from the stone it self. We disagree
the smoother the service on the stone the less particles it will relive. HUH ???
Because Japanese Naturals is not the grits but flacks and flacks brake down in thickness and not in size. That will mean that Atoma or DMT will destroy flacks in size and make thickness of the flacks bigger and make stone coarser ! Sorry but that came out as a contradiction, I think we actually agree here but I am not quite sure

I did try it on 100 or more Naturals stones so you don't have to convince me :)

---

I guess you know everything already then, So no matter what I try and explain, we will have to agree to disagree...

Main thing is if it works for you, you have to go with it :)
Nothing is wrong or right if its work !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxim207

Mane thing is if it works for you, you have to go with it :)
Nothing is wrong or right if its work !

---

And that we totally agree on :)

This is why I love this place. Two guys who are confinent in their skills, knowledge, & themselves...but also gentlemanly & wise enough to accept that what works for someone else may not work for another.

Thanks guys...

Shaved with the Wadsworth & Son this AM. The equal of any razor in my collection! Thanks everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pcb01

Shaved with the Wadsworth & Son this AM. The equal of any razor in my collection! Thanks everyone.

---

That is all matter .Enjoy

Not all declarations of "fact" are true. One of those is the "fact" that you can go from an 8k to a Jnat. Sure, you CAN do it, but I certainly don't consider it to be ideal. Regardless of the many Jnats I have tried, I have always preferred to use an intermediate between them. With that intermediate stone, I can get to the sticky feeling on the Jnat pretty quickly. I can get there without the intermediate, but it takes a lot longer.