Thread: Trouble finishing w quality J-nats

Wish I could blame the stones, but I can't. I bought the last two off Old School's old site. Both are Nakayamas, one an Asagi, the other a Kiita (with a little blue mixed in). I also have a third Nakayama from a trusted member here. These are all quality stones.

I've tried JimR's dilution (have all Asago Naguras); I've also tried plain water. For the life of me, I cannot equal what I get from my vinatge Thurris, cotis, or even my Nani 12K. After spending about an hour yesterday (just finishing!), I got the worst shave I've had (in terms of closeness) in over a year.

Any ideas? Questions?

Get rid of the problem, send them to me?

First things that spring to my mind: how much water are you using on them & how have they been lapped (if they have)? THe "Shoobie Doobie Asagi" thread talks lots about this. Are the edges harsh or just dull? WHat are you coming off of before going to the Jnat? Have you tried honing up to your 12k & then going to your stones w/ just a super thin film (a few drops really) of water? Give it a whirl & see what you get.

You're going to want to get a razor to a known condition 1st before you start experimenting. Keep us posted.

if you want I can test one of them for you. pm if interested.

What is your lapping routine before you put a razor to the stone?

I have no idea if this has anything to do with the problem but ..... I learned from Sham that some stones are best used for finishing razors that are already at a superlative level of sharpness. Since you accomplish great edges with your Thuringan follow that with some light round trips on one of the j-nats and see if that doesn't improve the already sharp/smooth edge. Worth a shot.

I have been playing a lot lately with japanese natural stones. What I have found is that when I first started I expected a bit much out of them. I would always think that I was spending enough time on them, turns out I wasn't. I just needed to allow more for slurry breakdown and for the natural process of the stones. In retrospect I was spending a lot of time on my naniwas beforehand.
Another situation I trusted that one of my stones was flat because of the seller, but Glen diagnosed that in about half a hummingbird's blink. A few minutes later and I had a razor suctioned to my face.
I also find that learning two stones and multiple techniques at once elongates the process from learning each individually. I tried learning 3 different honing techniques at once a while ago and it was frustrating to no end.

Where are you starting your J-Nat work? When I got started on J-Nats I finished the edge to about 16K like I normally do then went to my J-Nat, which was a finisher. This helped me establish a feel for the stone before I started using different naguras and other techniques.
Take care,
Richard

Well, there is no "JimR dilution". Dilution is not necessary in the system I use.

What happens when you use the nagura? I mean, how doe the bevel change, do you ever get a good armhair/HH test? You need to determine at what point the problem is occurring. Here's what I recommend.
"Reset" the edge by slightly breadknifing on glass a bit, then start on Botan nagura. Don't stop until you get a good bevel--at least shaving armhair, if possible starting to pop it above the skin. This is where sharpness comes from--if you don't do this right, then you won't get a sharp edge.

Don't move on until you get that.

Then, on to the next level of nagura (Mejiro or Tenjou) and do not move on until hair starts popping easily above the skin.

Do not move on until then.

Then, move on to the next level. If you have a Koma, use it, if not then tomonagura. At this point, you want to get as smooth an edge as possible.

How long have you been trying, by the way?

Originally Posted by JimR

Well, there is no "JimR dilution". Dilution is not necessary in the system I use.

What happens when you use the nagura? I mean, how doe the bevel change, do you ever get a good armhair/HH test? You need to determine at what point the problem is occurring. Here's what I recommend.
"Reset" the edge by slightly breadknifing on glass a bit, then start on Botan nagura. Don't stop until you get a good bevel--at least shaving armhair, if possible starting to pop it above the skin. This is where sharpness comes from--if you don't do this right, then you won't get a sharp edge.

Don't move on until you get that.

Then, on to the next level of nagura (Mejiro or Tenjou) and do not move on until hair starts popping easily above the skin.

Do not move on until then.

Then, move on to the next level. If you have a Koma, use it, if not then tomonagura. At this point, you want to get as smooth an edge as possible.

How long have you been trying, by the way?

Sorry, of course you're correct. I meant adding a little water to the toma nagura stage at the end. Mostly I've been using Naniwas to get the blade to cut hair above the skin and pass HHT, then I've been moving on to Koma, then an asagi slurry (diluting when it gets thick), and trying just water after that, or water by itself. The edge seems to get duller. Again, I apologize for misrepresenting your method.

How long have I been trying? Maybe a dozen blades. I know that's a small number, just thought I would ask sooner rather than later.

To answer some other questions:

I have not lapped any of these stones. I hate to remove the kanji, and as some of you know, OS is not a big fan of lapping these stones. The Kiita has two finished surfaces, and I use the side without the Kanji when I use JimR's procedure. I can feel the ink underneath as I hone when I use the Kanji side(s). Maybe this is part of the problem.

I do get a good HHT 4 before going to the Nakayamas (Koma or Toma), off a Nani 12K. They seem to get duller.

Patience (as always) may be the main problem. I've gotten used to spending 30 minutes setting a bevel, sharpening, polishing, and finishing with the Naniwas. I'm probably rushing through the Botan-Tenjou-Majiro-Koma sequence, when I go that route. I always have a good bevel before I start that sequence, though.