Thread: Trouble finishing w quality J-nats

I find my J-Nat is VERY slow. I did lap mine when I got it but not since. There weren't any kanji to protect as the previous owner had lapped it as well!

I do 25 strokes with a light slurry, 25 with a virtually water type slurry, 25 with water and then I wipe most o the water off and do a final 25 strokes. This give me wonderful edges which don't actually feel sharp on the skin but wipe the hairs away like they weren't there.

Mine is a Nakayama Maruichi by the way, and this approach seems to work very well for this particular stone.

Its a great stone and definitely my favourite finisher.

Did you guys happen to read through this thread from start to finish ????

Here is what I learned by doing just that,, I learned that either there are differences in Japanese naturals or there are a ton of different systems that work

Just like every single natural stone, each has a certain combination that is going to work, your job is to figure that sequence out...
Use a system that you are familiar with first, until you get a feel for the stone then expand that until you get the best edge...

I have listened to people on other forums tell me I am full of it when I tell them that it takes me 100 different razors on a stone before I even consider myself semi-proficient at it...
But I have learned that each natural stone has it's quirks and you need to learn them through time on the stone...

Embrace the challenge and take it slow one razor at a time.. In your case I would be coming off a known sharpness point first, say the 8k or 12k an simply try and improve that finish...

Try the slurry 3 different ways so you can learn the stone first use slurry made from your stone ie: use a DMT or such to raise the slurry, try No slurry, try diluting the slurry, and try letting the slurry go to almost dry see what the stone does first, then once you have that figured out, you can expand into using Nagura to change the properties of the slurry...

Buy a Swaty bro.

Originally Posted by pcb01

To answer some other questions:

I have not lapped any of these stones. I hate to remove the kanji, and as some of you know, OS is not a big fan of lapping these stones. The Kiita has two finished surfaces, and I use the side without the Kanji when I use JimR's procedure. I can feel the ink underneath as I hone when I use the Kanji side(s). Maybe this is part of the problem.

I don't know anything about using nagura but I do know that you'll get better results if you lap the stones. When I bought a Nakayma from a friend it had come from So and I knew it would be good. I checked it with a straight edge and it wasn't flat. I didn't lap it until I had done a half dozen razors on it. It did a good job but once I lapped it it did a better job. Take photos of the stones with the kanji and then lao them to realize their full potential.

Most of the answers are in the OP's post. He hasn't lapped the stones. Big problem. I have two stones from OS, both Maruichi Asagi, one with a Maruka stamp, great stones but slow. The one without the the Maruka, had to be lapped. The stone seemed to be glazed, and definitely wasn't flat. Take some pics, bit the bullet and lapp your stone. Decide whether or not you want an expensive paper weight or a functioning stones. Another thing OS always said was, "You can go from an 8k to these stones. He said that, not me. I routinely go up to either a 12k, an Escher, a Shapton 16k, even a Charnley. Keep the water the to a minimum. Too much water on a J nat kills it. Oh, and use a slurry. This will help big time. If you have no Tomonagura, use a DMT or the like. These stones are slow, no question. A hundred lapps is nothing. I do 100 and test. Like Glen said, Each Natural stone is unique, and needs to be learned.
More importantly, I had my OS stones evaluated by Max (Maxim) He said they are too soft to use Nagrua on, I believe'd him, and got the Shoobie Doobie...
I'd be glad to work with you, just drop me a pm.....

Rich

Originally Posted by pcb01

Wish I could blame the stones, but I can't. I bought the last two off Old School's old site. Both are Nakayamas, one an Asagi, the other a Kiita (with a little blue mixed in). I also have a third Nakayama from a trusted member here. These are all quality stones.

I've tried JimR's dilution (have all Asago Naguras); I've also tried plain water. For the life of me, I cannot equal what I get from my vinatge Thurris, cotis, or even my Nani 12K. After spending about an hour yesterday (just finishing!), I got the worst shave I've had (in terms of closeness) in over a year.

Any ideas? Questions?

My advice send your stone for testing. i can do so if you are willing to ship to MO. if anyone closer to you let them test.
Natural stones will act differently.
Ones i have test 28 razors in one stone to find out what this Japanese stone was doing.
Sometimes will take just one razor.

This is what makes this sport so much fun. We all have our own preferences.

I come off the 8K with my Japanese Naturals and normally will do 10 strokes on a light slurry using anything from the lightest Japanese nagura to a piece of Coticule for slurry. The strokes are no pressure. I then go to just water and do another 10 strokes. If needed I can dial in with 5 additional strokes or a couple of 5's if needed. This has worked with the Escher and Coticule too.

I would agree with Glen and I have been lucky enough to have a lot more razors to hone than most and I usually don't start opinionating on any particular stone unless I have had a lot of razors (usually a couple hundred) on it and tried various techniques.

I normally feel that when you are using a finishing stone, whether a 12K, 16, or Natural after something similar to an 8K that it is very hard to better the edge and in most cases you end up losing it when you go to another stone (personal opinion only).

Although some disagree, I generally find that weight of the blade pressure from the 8K stage through finishing plays a large part in the success of the final edge.

Have fun,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

Although some disagree, I generally find that weight of the blade pressure from the 8K stage through finishing plays a large part in the success of the final edge.

This was my problem, I finally listened and guess what? I now produce consistent edges...

Many thanks to all who have helped. Main points I take away are:

1. Lap the doggone stones. This won't be painful, since I have two surfaces without the Kanji.

2. Use less water. I pretty much have been puddling it up. Seems a couple of drops works for many.

3. Stick with one stone at a time. I have been switching around between them, treating them as if they were interchangeable. I see where that can be confusing me.

4. Be patient and systematic. I keep relearning this, then forgetting it again.

Having said all that, last night I did about 100 passes just on water with a Clauberg Bros (Solingen) that I'd previously finished on a Nani 12K. The edge went from average to superior. I know it's just superstition, but it seems that whenever I post here re some honing problem, the issue seems to resolve itself within a day or so -- which is one of the reasons I did the OP. I'm sure that by adopting your suggestions, me and the Nakayamas will learn to get along just fine (eventually).

Originally Posted by zib

..., "You can go from an 8k to these stones. ...Rich

'Not even close to expert, but I had to do several hundred strokes (like an arkansas stone) to get an edge at first (N-asagi from So). I was trying to get max keenness before going to the asagi, so I gave it all I had on a c12k at the time. Oz suggested ditching the c12k and going from the 8k nani. It cut the number of required strokes by more than half. Now I go from coticule to asagi, and get good results from a slow stone. With the coti, it's been getting dilution rate right. The asagi is much more complex, dealing w/ a disintegrating slurry. From 8k to finish, I had best results with very little water (drops), and a light, misty slurry. It would have to clean and refresh the slurry 3x for best results. If it gets too keen/harsh, 4-6 strokes on the dry stone brings back it's manners.

'Loved Glen's post about doing your time. I've repeated his statement about 100 blades to begin your learning often. I don't have access to that many blades, but am determined to pay my dues, spend the time, get the feel in the hands, find what tricks work best with that steel and what stone. My first 6 mo, I honed 45 blades. From December 'til now, another 70 blades. I have two here now for others, 2 inbound, and am trying to get my hands on most any blade for the practice and experience. If you've acquired any beater blades, dull them and hone again, trying another variation. I agree w/ others - photograph the kanji, lap and chamfer. I had no choice, as my asagi had a chip that extended into the surface 5/8". I lapped to maximize a straight line, which involved lapping away some surface about 10 degrees from flat. That 10 deg fall away now serves to hone the concave side of blades that have a slight warp. 'Works very well, though challenging to stay light and smooth across the fall-away edge.