Touch Up Question

I've tried twice now to touch up my 6/8 Dovo (sent to SRD for initial honing) on my Chinese hone with a slurry. It shaves a tiny bit better, but still not a great shave. In this post, some suggested that the Chinese hone may not be enough to bring it back. I've finally purchased and lapped a Norton 4k/8k. So here's my question:

Would it be a good idea to try 10 or so laps on the 8k, strop and shave to see if there's any improvement, then try my Chinese hone to see if there's any improvement in smoothness over the 8k? Essentially, hone on 8k, test. Finish on Chinese hone, test. Compare. I hope this makes sense. Basically I'm trying to isolate things. If I hone on 8k, then the Chinese hone, then strop and shave and something is off (which it most likely will be), I won't know where I went wrong.

Thanks for any feedback.


Ken


ps-I'm a newb, but I feel like my time on the Chinese hone was ok. I had good contact, just the weight of the blade on the stone, even strokes, etc.

The Chinese hone is extremely slow. That being said, if that doesn't bring the edge back, drop to the 8K. After the 8k, go to the Chinese hone then strop and test. If that doesn't bring the edge back, drop to 4K and go through the progression.

After you used the Chinese hone with slurry, did you then continue with just water? You'll likely need to do about 50 strokes of each.

Utopian,

Yes, I diluted it to just water, then rinsed the hone and razor with water, then did about the same number of strokes (not sure, I lost count, but probably a little over 50).

Theseus,

Do you think there would be any benefit in shave testing after the 8k, then again after the chinese hone?

Thanks,

Ken

Personally, I'd only test shave after the 12K and stropping. If you wanted to take the Chinese hone out of the equation completely, then you could test after the 8K.

There is no harm in shaving after the 8k and benefit is that you will then get a sense of the improvement afforded by the Chinese hone. Unless you damaged the edge, you should not need to drop down to the 4k ever.

You could certainly try shaving off the 8K. The Norton 8K stone, if used like in Gssixgun's video YouTube - gssixgun Honing on a Norton 4-8 is more than capable of providing a shave ready razor. The 12K used after the 8K will simply add a smoothness to the blade by further polishing the edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KenL

So here's my question:

Would it be a good idea to try 10 or so laps on the 8k, strop and shave to see if there's any improvement, then try my Chinese hone to see if there's any improvement in smoothness over the 8k? Essentially, hone on 8k, test. Finish on Chinese hone, test. Compare. I hope this makes sense. Basically I'm trying to isolate things. If I hone on 8k, then the Chinese hone, then strop and shave and something is off (which it most likely will be), I won't know where I went wrong.

Thanks for any feedback.


Ken


ps-I'm a newb, but I feel like my time on the Chinese hone was ok. I had good contact, just the weight of the blade on the stone, even strokes, etc.

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Above statement will confuse you more. you will not get what you are looking for.
This is how system works in your case.
as you already mention your chinese 12k didn't bring the edge back?
any you don't want to mix up to find out where you went wrong?
then do this.
now hone on 8k make not ten at least 15-25 strokes .
strop and shave test see what happens. if you wont get what you are looking for then you will need to go down to 4k.
go for k and make 25-40 strokes. then come basck to 8k 10-30 strokes then you could shave test.
not satisfied you could make 10 more strokes and test the edge again. not in there then move to chinse 12k and make 100 strokes.
50 wont be enough.
shave test see how it will shave. good luck

Thank you all. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to get a really unpleasant shave off the 8k (although, since I'm new at this, there's still that possibility). The consensus seems to be that I can shave off the 8k if I want to gain an understanding/appreciation for what each hone does. I'll give it a shot in order to feel the difference between the 8k and whatever grit my Chinese hone is.

Thanks Adam_MA for posting the video! I have no illusions that I can use a hone like gssixgun, but I learned a lot from the video. I didn't know that, on a budget, it is possible to set a bevel on the 4k.

Thanks hi_bud_gl for your advice. When I typed my previous response, I questioned whether 10 strokes on the 8k would be enough. Thanks for giving me a specific number on the 8k.

Sorry for adding on another question, but while re-reading my original post, I realized that I made a comment about smoothness. Is it possible for a newcomer to be able to distinguish between sharp/smooth/not sharp? Or put differently, with how will I know if it's sharp and not smooth or just not sharp yet? Will I get a close, but slightly more uncomfortable/irritating shave?

Thanks again for your patience,

Ken

Your blade should shave comfortable. What i mean by that.
No pooling ,etc. you don't have to make 2 or more passes in same location or use pressure blade to cut hair.
while you shave you use pressure and that does give to you irritaiton or your blade is not sharp enough and you end up pushing blade against your skin.
you should not use pressure.

Thanks hi_bud_gl! I'm not sure if I'll have time tonight, but within the next couple of days I'll give the 8k a shot, then see how it shaves. I'm sure I'll have some more questions after that :)


Ken

when you use 8k take pressure out too. just use weight of the blade. you will feel differences right away if not then you should go down to 4k or start to using a little pressure and make 10 more strokes . then make again 10 more strokes without pressure.
i usually never advice people to use pressure on 8k level . You can do so will not hurt .but remember your last strokes should be without pressure.
gl

Just did about 25 strokes on the 8k. I was very surprised by how smooth it was. I'll shave with it in the morning. My initial feeling is that it didn't do the trick. Water wasn't running up the blade, but I'm not sure if that is a sure sign to go by. We'll see how it goes in the morning.

Ken

Ok, the shave test was better than expected, but still not quite there it seems. I noticed a significant improvement over using just the Chinese hone. When I shaved, I moved the blade straight down (from sideburn to jawline), but held the razor at an angle (so that the heal was leading) and about a spine width, maybe a tad more, between my face and the spine. It cut most whiskers close to the skin, but left a few. On my xtg (which I do from ear to the corner of my mouth), the razor cut close to all the remaining whiskers (the few it missed I'll blame on user error). Similar results for my neck with the slightest bit of irritation (not visible, but I can feel it) and a small nick for good measure. I typically don't do an ATG pass because I'm just focusing on WTG and XTG and trying to get the best shave possible from those.

My understanding is that a shave ready razor shouldn't leave any stubble behind after a stroke (assuming the stroke is good).

Anyway, it looks like I have a bit more work to do. I am really enjoying all the practice and feeling the improvement, albeit slight. Thanks again for all your help.

Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KenL

My understanding is that a shave ready razor shouldn't leave any stubble behind after a stroke (assuming the stroke is good).

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Not necessarily. You want effective and comfortable. Whisker removal comes from the blade, technique, and prep; and they can all improve over time. Multiple passes may need to be done. Shorter strokes may work better as well. The long swiping strokes look cool by may not be the most effective approach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KenL

Ok, the shave test was better than expected, but still not quite there it seems. I noticed a significant improvement over using just the Chinese hone. When I shaved, I moved the blade straight down (from sideburn to jawline), but held the razor at an angle (so that the heal was leading) and about a spine width, maybe a tad more, between my face and the spine. It cut most whiskers close to the skin, but left a few. On my xtg (which I do from ear to the corner of my mouth), the razor cut close to all the remaining whiskers (the few it missed I'll blame on user error). Similar results for my neck with the slightest bit of irritation (not visible, but I can feel it) and a small nick for good measure. I typically don't do an ATG pass because I'm just focusing on WTG and XTG and trying to get the best shave possible from those.

My understanding is that a shave ready razor shouldn't leave any stubble behind after a stroke (assuming the stroke is good).

Anyway, it looks like I have a bit more work to do. I am really enjoying all the practice and feeling the improvement, albeit slight. Thanks again for all your help.

Ken

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This is great just keep it going.there is always learning curve and you will do fine .gl

Good job Ken. Your learning that blades can reach a point where a finisher, like a 12k, or Barber hone cannot help anymore. It's hard for us to know exactly what your blade is like, even more difficult, when It's a new guy, too many variables. So, If the 12k doesn't work, drop down one...Still no joy, drop down another. You'll get to the point where you can test your blade with your thumb pad, and know where it stands....

Thanks for the encouraging words and advice! It does feel good to be getting somewhere, and I owe it to you all. Tell you what, after 100 stroke sessions with the Chinese hone, it sure was nice to only do 25 on the Norton! This weekend I'll try the 4k. I'm out of sandpaper, but I want to grab some more and lap it again just to be sure.

Utopian, you've mentioned that I shouldn't drop down to the 4k unless I've damaged the edge. Is the alternative doing more strokes on the 8k? Or is it implied that if the 8k doesn't bring it back after 25 strokes, I have damaged the edge whether I realize it or not? Just trying to get some different perspectives.

Thanks,

Ken

Just an update. Sunday I did a few strokes on the 4k, then 20ish on the 8k. I had a good feeling towards the end because, right before I stopped on the 8k, when the edge touched the hone, water would go up the blade with out me having to move it. So, off the 8k I did about 100 fabric and 100 leather on the strop and shaved this morning.

It was very nice. Always room for improvement, but it shaved away 2 days worth of whiskers with no trouble. I would say that my first pass today removed the same amount of whiskers as the two passes I did on Friday. Of course I still did an XTG pass, which improved things.

I can't wait to feel the difference after spending some time on the Chinese hone.

Again, thanks for all your help!


Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KenL

Do you think there would be any benefit in shave testing after the 8k, then again after the chinese hone?

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Absolutely! It's a wonderful idea. It's the best way to discover the C12K's capabilities.

Christopher

great job! it's always fund to read the details of the success stories :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KenL

Utopian, you've mentioned that I shouldn't drop down to the 4k unless I've damaged the edge. Is the alternative doing more strokes on the 8k? Or is it implied that if the 8k doesn't bring it back after 25 strokes, I have damaged the edge whether I realize it or not? Just trying to get some different perspectives.

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If you are TOUCHING UP an edge, the blade should be only slightly dulled and should require minimal honing to bring it back. The lower grits, including the 4k, should be unnecessary for touch ups unless you have really, really delayed getting around to that touch up. In general, I wouldn't do more than 25 strokes on an 8k (I usually do 10 to 15, sometimes 20) but I hesitate to offer that as proof you need to drop to 4k. I guess I'll leave it that you should aim to touch up the blade with minimal steel removal, but in the end you need to gradually do whatever is needed to get it shaving right.

Thanks Gugi!

I'm about to spend some quality time with the chinese hone. We'll see if I can feel a difference in the morning.

Thanks for clarifying Utopian. Makes sense to me, as little as possible, but as much as necessary.

Thanks,

Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KenL

Makes sense to me, as little as possible, but as much as necessary.

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Ha! Yes, you get it!

Did many, many strokes on the Chinese hone last night, with slurry. Then did many, many more without slurry.

For some reason my stropping just didn't feel right afterward, I didn't feel like it was making good contact on the return stroke. Then I may have had a stropping break through. Ohhhhhh, flipping the razor/rolling it between my fingers, not turning your entire arm, makes sense now. Started getting much better contact and feel while stropping. Did a bunch of laps. Only time will tell if this maintains my razors better than before.

Anyway, great shave this morning. I'm having a hard time putting it into words, but it just seemed easier. Like the whiskers were only ghosts of their former selves, if that makes sense. Can't wait touch up my other razor when it needs it. Between the perceived stropping improvement and my first successful "touch-up" (it was really more than just a touch up), I'm a happy camper this morning.

A sincere thanks again for your help, encouragement, and advice!

Ken

well i would sugesst a barber hone, they are fast cutters and will bring your edge back in less than 8 strokes.

I've thought about a barber's hone. But, I already have the Chinese hone. I don't mind the extra strokes. It's relaxing for the most part, and it's not like I'm honing a lot of razors. However, I can feel the beginnings of HAD (Lately, I've caught myself thinking "I sure would be nice to have a 1k, you know, just in case…"), so I probably will get a barber's hone at some point.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Ken

Yes, barber hones are convenient, but the most convenient stone is whichever one you already have. Your Chinese hone, as long as it is a good or decent one, should work just fine.

yea so tru, use what you got for now but if by any chance you stumble apon a barber hone ( like i have at antique stores) than its a smart envesment.