New coticule - to unicot or not to unicot?

Well... this is weird, now that I think about it; I was shopping for a Norton 4k/8k combo and wound up buying a coticule. I felt it was too good a deal to pass up.

Now the dilemma is this: should I just hold on to it and use it as a finisher, after I save up a little to get the Norton or should I try the unicot method?

I must admit that it's killing me to have it sitting here and not using it, and I have at least ten razors I could try it on, plus three chinese ones that I could practice on, but I'm unsure if trying this would be the right way to start honing.

Your thoughts are encouraged and appreciated.

And since I'm asking... can one use the backing stone too? It looks like it would be fine honing with it, but I haven't seen it mentioned as a 'usable' surface.

Thanks for your time.

Of course, go ahead and USE it. If you can't get them sharp, then you've lost nothing. You need to practice the stroke to develop the muscle memory to consistently keep the blade flat on the hone, and you can develop this on the coticule as well as on any other hone.

Go for it!

Congratulations on your new purchase!

Yes, why not?
I would try out all three major uses for it, now that you have it.
Both used as a finisher, the Dilucot and the Unicot method.

I have been playing around with them for a while, and it has been a fun and educational experience.
The backing of your stone is most likely slate. Not usable for honing!
If the stone you have bought is a natural combo, that is with a Belgian Blue side, you can absolutely use that too.
Do you know what layer it is?

I know many people love their Coticules, but I feel I must tell you that there is a learning curve to it.
Especially the Dilucot method.
It's considered easier to learn to hone on a synthetic system like the Naniwas or similar.
But hey, now you have it, so try away, I'd say:)

Well, gentlemen, that is all the validation I need.

Thank you for the encouragement. To the stone!

(all this in what I believe is a record 14 minutes. Not too shabby. Not at all.)

As others have said there is no harm in giving it a try.

Work up a slurry on the stone the consistency of milk and every 10-15 x strokes dilute with a bit of water. Keep on going until your at plain water and do some more laps like that. If you feel like it's not sharp enough add a layer of tape and make a very light slurry and dilute to water again.

After that you most likely have a sharp blade. There is a learning curve to the stones so it might take a bit of time to play with sets and dilutions.

If you do use it after the 8k a light slurry until plain water will work just the same.

Took the plunge.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post779886

Thank you all for your support and encouragement. :D

Snake, Screw up that reptilian courage, read up on the methods and give it a go. If it's a combo stone, try the BBW side too. Since trying a couple, I set bevels on other stones, but for everything up to finishing, I like the coti best so far. Yes, there's a learning curve. There's a curve to other stones too. Finishing, I'm still struggling. A few times the coti finish rivaled the jnat, but not as easily or consistently - so sometimes I switch to the jnat. You'll probably like the coti alot.

(don't ask Utopian how many he has :)

Unicot is a bullet proof edge. its so easy to learn. keep at it and you will see. It sounds like you just need to practice. If your doing unicot , make sure your tape is.15mm and good quality tape. Get a good bevel that shaves arm hair easily. then add tape and go steady with 30 light laps on misty slurry. then 60 on fresh water. linen /leather. as some one said tilt your slurry stone and rub up and down your coticule. then ajust your slurry and keep it milky don't let it get any dryer or denser. read up on coticule.be in the sharpening acadamey. This explain unicot to a tee. Once you masterd unicot. then try dilucot , if that fails you just add unicot edge ad your there.

You may also need a 1k for bevel work if your coticule is slower with slurry. As your a beginner i would grab your self a 6x21200dmt. then go to coticule as you have . If your experianced enough you could use a fast coticule . I still would get a 1k manmade hone . i've heard the 1k kings are great , i use 1200 /600 duo dmt.

gary

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

Unicot is a bullet proof edge. its so easy to learn. keep at it and you will see. It sounds like you just need to practice. If your doing unicot , make sure your tape is.15mm and good quality tape. Get a good bevel that shaves arm hair easily. then add tape and go steady with 30 light laps on misty slurry. then 60 on fresh water. linen /leather. as some one said tilt your slurry stone and rub up and down your coticule. then ajust your slurry and keep it milky don't let it get any dryer or denser. read up on coticule.be in the sharpening acadamey. This explain unicot to a tee. Once you masterd unicot. then try dilucot , if that fails you just add unicot edge ad your there.

You may also need a 1k for bevel work if your coticule is slower with slurry. As your a beginner i would grab your self a 6x21200dmt. then go to coticule as you have . If your experianced enough you could use a fast coticule . I still would get a 1k manmade hone . i've heard the 1k kings are great , i use 1200 /600 duo dmt.

gary

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+1

Coticule is very nice and fun stone for use. So, just practice and you will never need another stone.

I also use a coticule, and i'd told you you should try the Dilucot instead of the unicot... You can find this method on www.coticule.be, in the razor sharping academy.

You won't use any tape, will get a better bevel, and a better edge when mastered.

I think, IMHO, that a decent razor should never meet tape, and a decent honer should never use tape, to keep the correct angle on your edge, and keep you razor longer...

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

I also use a coticule, and i'd told you you should try the Dilucot instead of the unicot... You can find this method on www.coticule.be, in the razor sharping academy.

You won't use any tape, will get a better bevel, and a better edge when mastered.

I think, IMHO, that a decent razor should never meet tape, and a decent honer should never use tape, to keep the correct angle on your edge, and keep you razor longer...

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There is absolutely no difference between a perfect dilucot edge, and a perfect unicot edge. The difference is, that unicot is much easier in the beginning, and it is faster. So in the end, unicot gives much more success for a beginner, much faster. After it you can learn the dilucot if you want, but it isn't necessary.

For me honewear is simply put ugly, so I tape every razor I hone.

I think I will never understand the "taping" method... I mean, it's not, IMHO a good way to keep a razor in good shape, cause you change the edge angle, and of course, if that's not important when a razor is new (only a very minor angle change), it becomes more important when you've honed your razor several times, or if you had a chick on the blade : the more steel you remove, the more your angle will be changed...

Of course, I presume the impact is less important if you only hone rarely, for maintainig your razor in good shape.

But IMHO I prefer a razor with honewear but with a correct bevel and edge, than a spine with no honewear but with a modified edge... (Of course that's my personnal opinion).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

I think I will never understand the "taping" method... I mean, it's not, IMHO a good way to keep a razor in good shape, cause you change the edge angle, and of course, if that's not important when a razor is new (only a very minor angle change), it becomes more important when you've honed your razor several times, or if you had a chick on the blade : the more steel you remove, the more your angle will be changed...

Of course, I presume the impact is less important if you only hone rarely, for maintainig your razor in good shape.

But IMHO I prefer a razor with honewear but with a correct bevel and edge, than a spine with no honewear but with a modified edge... (Of course that's my personnal opinion).

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Well actually, the spine and edge will wear at different rates so your bevel angle changes slightly whether or not you tape. Probably wouldn't matter enough either way to make a shaving difference. So tape users do as you like, non-tape users do what you like. And everyone have a wonderful day!

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Originally Posted by porridgeorange

Well actually, the spine and edge will wear at different rates so your bevel angle changes slightly whether or not you tape. Probably wouldn't matter enough either way to make a shaving difference. So tape users do as you like, non-tape users do what you like. And everyone have a wonderful day!

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+1

I am cmpletely on your side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

I think, IMHO, that a decent razor should never meet tape, and a decent honer should never use tape, to keep the correct angle on your edge, and keep you razor longer...

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To tape or not, in every case razor will overlive us.
Also, reverting from taping to untaping blade is very easy (less than 5 minutes is enough to revert it).

Sorry guys, and I am not picking on this cot business that has been heavily popularized, but basically whether you cot it or whether you do the one stone honing routine with circles, we are ending up with pretty much the same result so long as we either have a razor in good condition or we set the bevel first. I don't believe in taping or dulling the razor and have found that the one stone honing method works pretty well on all naturals and that it even can work on something as simple as the barber hone.

Have fun,

Lynn

I just recently purchased a coticule for a number of reasons, not at all limited to:
my nortons were exhibiting a tendency to gum up with crud, swarf, whatever you want to call it, and they needed to be lapped and/or cleaned with some regularity. YMMV. I used sandpaper and a countertop for this for two years but grew tired of that. Then I bought a rather expensive (in my opinion) DMT plate for lapping which was (in my opinion) quickly degraded by my Norton set and rendered all but totally useless.

I like the idea of having one stone to do much of my honing work. I also like the idea of the challenge that it's sure to bring me. I also really like the notion of not lapping a stone and/or stone set each time I want to hone a razor.

Perhaps other stones exhibit the same one-stone qualities or abilities that coticules do, I don't doubt it. I appreciate all the work that has gone into developing the multitude of techniques I find on this site. However it seems to me that the coticule appears to be the best-documented one-stone approach out there. It also fits within my rather humble budget.

For what it's worth, I have no complaints regarding my Nortons (other than having to lap them at a rate that I personally consider burdensome) Your mileage may vary. I have no experience with other systems; the only other stone I have is the chinese woodcraft stone with which I am quite happy.

In any case I wish us both good luck in learning to achieve success with our coticules!

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Originally Posted by Jimbo7

I just recently purchased a coticule for a number of reasons, not at all limited to:
my nortons were exhibiting a tendency to gum up with crud, swarf, whatever you want to call it, and they needed to be lapped and/or cleaned with some regularity. YMMV. I used sandpaper and a countertop for this for two years but grew tired of that. Then I bought a rather expensive (in my opinion) DMT plate for lapping which was (in my opinion) quickly degraded by my Norton set and rendered all but totally useless.

I like the idea of having one stone to do much of my honing work. I also like the idea of the challenge that it's sure to bring me. I also really like the notion of not lapping a stone and/or stone set each time I want to hone a razor.

Perhaps other stones exhibit the same one-stone qualities or abilities that coticules do, I don't doubt it. I appreciate all the work that has gone into developing the multitude of techniques I find on this site. However it seems to me that the coticule appears to be the best-documented one-stone approach out there. It also fits within my rather humble budget.

For what it's worth, I have no complaints regarding my Nortons (other than having to lap them at a rate that I personally consider burdensome) Your mileage may vary. I have no experience with other systems; the only other stone I have is the chinese woodcraft stone with which I am quite happy.

In any case I wish us both good luck in learning to achieve success with our coticules!

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Next......................

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Sorry guys, and I am not picking on this cot business that has been heavily popularized, but basically whether you cot it or whether you do the one stone honing routine with circles, we are ending up with pretty much the same result so long as we either have a razor in good condition or we set the bevel first. I don't believe in taping or dulling the razor and have found that the one stone honing method works pretty well on all naturals and that it even can work on something as simple as the barber hone.

Have fun,

Lynn

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Lynn,
I realize that doing one stone honing on a barber hone would not be the most efficient way to get to a sharp edge...but say I had the time and will to do so. What sort of stroke would be useful? Could I do a ton of circles? And also assuming I'm not attempting to use slurry on a barber hone would the edge be at its optimal once the bevel is set (just like if it had been refreshed)? These might all be ridiculous questions so feel free to say so... really appreciate the input.

Hi Ben,

Actually, I did the one hone method on a barber hone just to see if I could and it worked. I was pretty amazed and then tried it on a couple. My best results have come off my old Swaty. I used a plain Japan Woodworker Nagura and a Coticule rubbing stone for slurry. The barber hones still work very well for refreshing, but I had to try them when I was playing around with the one hone method on Cotcules, Charnley Forest, Escher, Chinese 12K and a bunch of Japanese Naturals. Actually, one of the Coticule regulars tried to hone a razor using the barber hone and the one stone method and found that it worked for him as well.

The basic premise is to start with a blade in good condition or one that has had the bevel set.

With heavy slurry, you do 40 circles each way with pressure followed by 10-15 X strokes.
Follow with medium slurry and do 40 circles each way with pressure each way and then do 40 circles each way with no pressure followed by 5-10 X strokes and no pressure.
Next, you use a light slurry and do 10-15 (I generally use 10) no pressure X strokes and then with no slurry and water only do 10-15 more no pressure X strokes.
Finally, you can either strop and test shave or do 10 no pressure X strokes on .5 diamond or Chromium Oxide followed by the regular stropping and testing.
This is a can do method with consistency much in line with the Cot methods. I normally get the razor shaving 7 times out of ten without have to repeat all or any portion of the process. There is no question that these methods can work.

At the end of the day there is no magic stone or method that is the best for everyone and personal preferences always come into play both with process and different stones. Not unlike our preferences with razors.

I still use a Naniwa Chosera followed by the Norton 4K/8K every day with the variable being what finishing stone I am using. I believe that the Naniwa Super Stone is the most consistent stone for me and I get my best results following the finishing stone with .5 diamond spray on felt. Others simply use the finishing stone. I am totally convinced that the method and stones that work best for you are the best, but there really is no best of the best no matter how much we choose to glorify or promote any one method or stone. I suspect that there will always also be something new to try out in both arenas that may work better for us. The search continues.......

Glen has some videos out I believe with a one stone method similar to what I described if you ever want to watch it. I may have to make a couple video's of the method I use that was described above.

I have used a few Coticule stones for the past 8 years and would say that they are fine stones. They will work and produce good results. They are not the best stones in my opinion and they are not the only stones out there no matter how much they get promoted. It would always be one of several hones that I would and do recommend to people depending on the individual's needs and objectives.

Have fun,

Lynn

Lynn,
As always, that was an extremely thorough and informative post. Thank you for sharing your insights. I really have to start bookmarking posts for future digestion.

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

I think I will never understand the "taping" method... I mean, it's not, IMHO a good way to keep a razor in good shape, cause you change the edge angle, and of course, if that's not important when a razor is new (only a very minor angle change), it becomes more important when you've honed your razor several times, or if you had a chick on the blade : the more steel you remove, the more your angle will be changed...

Of course, I presume the impact is less important if you only hone rarely, for maintaining your razor in good shape.

But IMHO I prefer a razor with honewear but with a correct bevel and edge, than a spine with no honewear but with a modified edge... (Of course that's my personal opinion).

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Bbr6704 You need to do some serious reading...

You entire premise is wrong, all the info is here on SRP you just need to search it out...
But ask yourself these questions..
How much does the angle change from 1 piece of tape???
What is the best angle
Are all razors that same angle
Is the spine the same hardness as the edge...
You should know at least the answers to these before you start making blanket statments here, and trust me when you can answer those I have many more :) BTW I don't think you should use tape either if you don't want to, but please get the facts straight...

Next
For those of you that doubt the One Stone Honing you need to read / watch /try ... here http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...lynn-glen.html

You also have to understand slurry technique has been around for increasing cutting power for a long long time, and the problem has always been the same with any of the techniques that employ it... You are throwing in a new variable to the honing mix which of course makes the outcome more variable and less consistent...

There are many systems

The Pyramid
Progression
One Stone
The Cots
Nagura
Pasted Strops

And probably some I am forgeting,

They all work... and now I am going to go employ at least one of those and hone some razors :)

Gssixgun,

I can understand your answer, and I can understand that a piece of tape won't change the angle a lot when used on a blade in good condition (because tape is very thin). But when it's used on an old damged balde, that's, IMO different.

But it's easy to see it changes the angle as you create a secondary bevel with unicot. I'm not conviced of the interst of this...


And I also know there are different razors, with different angles, but also with different steels and tempering process (hope these are the right terms?...) : so, I haven't got enough knowledge to know if there is a relation between steel, tempering and angle, but I can presume that razors original shape was made to give the best shave possible.

And as the spine and edge are made of the same steel (except maybie on a frameback), I guess they have the same hardnees, if you don't use pressure on the blade, or using a little pressure, but on the entire blade, not only on the edge.

And for example, the smaller is the angle of a blade, the more it will cut but will be fragile ( a razor for exemple). On the opposite, the bigger is the angle, the more it will be strong but will cut less (an axe for exemple).

Of course, and I don't mean that, changing your angle won't change your razor to an axe, but I'm convinced that it can change the razor's abilities.

And I'm not sure tape makes honing easier, it makes it faster, but honing without tape isn't harder...

Well, of course, that won't change my razors, as I don't use tape, and I don't mind if other use tape, as I don't shave with their razors, but I just wanted to share informations I've got, don't mind if you don't agree, I don't pretend to get the one and only truth...

Best wihses.

And of course, have a nice day and a nice shave! ;)

Please read the tape vs not tape discussions we have, and you will see that there are cons and pros for both. In the end, either way it is fine, everyone should make the choice himself. There is no right or wrong way here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

so, I haven't got enough knowledge to know if there is a relation between steel, tempering and angle, but I can presume that razors original shape was made to give the best shave possible.

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After you see couple of hundred razors you'll know that's not the case. Neither do current production razors have the geometry tolerances you're assuming.
So basically your assumptions are wrong hence the conclusions you're making based on them are incorrect as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbr6704

Gssixgun,

I can understand your answer, and I can understand that a piece of tape won't change the angle a lot when used on a blade in good condition (because tape is very thin). But when it's used on an old damged balde, that's, IMO different.

But it's easy to see it changes the angle as you create a secondary bevel with unicot. I'm not conviced of the interst of this...


And I also know there are different razors, with different angles, but also with different steels and tempering process (hope these are the right terms?...) : so, I haven't got enough knowledge to know if there is a relation between steel, tempering and angle, but I can presume that razors original shape was made to give the best shave possible.

And as the spine and edge are made of the same steel (except maybie on a frameback), I guess they have the same hardnees, if you don't use pressure on the blade, or using a little pressure, but on the entire blade, not only on the edge.

And for example, the smaller is the angle of a blade, the more it will cut but will be fragile ( a razor for exemple). On the opposite, the bigger is the angle, the more it will be strong but will cut less (an axe for exemple).

Of course, and I don't mean that, changing your angle won't change your razor to an axe, but I'm convinced that it can change the razor's abilities.

And I'm not sure tape makes honing easier, it makes it faster, but honing without tape isn't harder...

Well, of course, that won't change my razors, as I don't use tape, and I don't mind if other use tape, as I don't shave with their razors, but I just wanted to share informations I've got, don't mind if you don't agree, I don't pretend to get the one and only truth...

Best wihses.

And of course, have a nice day and a nice shave! ;)

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Please don't take this thread off topic with this tape dicission there are 100's of threads all over the honing section, please go read them...
The Tape - vs - No Tape topic has been dicussed until we have all bled red from our finger tips...

What we are telling you is the your science is bunk, not that taping or not taping is right or wrong... :)