How sharp can you get without a set bevel?

I've been trying to learn to hone since last year (intermittently) and haven't had success. I can get my Geneva Cutlery Tiger sharp enough to shave my arms or my legs, and it'll shave my face, but not closely and not without tugging the whole time. I've read everything I can find but I'm not sure where my problem is.

I'm using 3m abrasive film as described in the wiki, 15, 5, and 0.5 micron sheets on a plate of glass. I've seen this exact progression lauded at least twice (besides the wiki guide), so I know it's not the film, which I've tried rinsing and replacing. I picked the razor because it had a really straight, even blade and spine.

I've tried pyramids on the 5 & 0.5 after setting the bevel, I've tried straight progressions and I've tried using a microscope (between 50x and 400x) to watch the scratch patterns and look for microchips while trying to learn the tests by feel. I've also tried it with and without tape on the spine.

Every time I start from scratch I set the bevel, move up to a 0.5 polish then hit a sharpness plateau and no amount of honing on the 5 micron seems to improve it. The thing is, everything seems to point to the bevel being fully set. I never leave the 15 micron until I can feel the whole blade sticking to my thumb pad, every part of it will cut both arm hair (mine is very light) and leg hair in any direction. When I used tape I changed it frequently. It will also pass the thumbnail test, but I don't usually use it. I even tried setting a microbevel once by doubling up the tape, starting with a few strokes on 0.5 film, and eventually the 5 micron without any noticable improvement.

**Edit: another thing that confuses me is that I typically get a feeling of suction as I finish up on the 0.5 micron film, like people have said a sharp razor will produce. Obviously my stropping could be suspect but I'm positive I've tried skipping it.

I know that not setting the bevel fully is the main newbie mistake, but can I honestly be doing that and still be able to (technically) shave my face with it? Or must my stroke just not be good enough?

A while back I thought my problem was a convex bevel. The 15 micron film is stiff and becomes arched when cut into hone-sized strips. Through the microscope it looked like the scratches would always be polished out in the middle of the bevel first. I figured that when I stuck the film to the glass the spring in the film was sucking up extra water, giving it too much cushion. I swapped to the flatter adhesive-backed film which seemed to solve the problem in the microscope, but the razor hasn't gotten any sharper.

Do any of the successful honers have any advice for me? I'm sick of wasting steel but set on figuring this out.

It sounds like the bevel isn't the problem.

I've never honed on film, but I wonder if you need one or two more grits in your progression. I don't know what grits the film comes in, but if you had a 10 micron and a 2 micron or something like that it might help.

Also, there is no point in going to the 0.5 until its as sharp as you can get it on the 5.

You may just need something between those two...

I know that you are in Canada, but I have cheaply mailed things there before. To remove doubt, I'd like to offer that you mail me your razor. I'll assess it under a stereomicroscope and tell you what I find--good or bad. I will set the bevel and mail it back to you. That way you can at least be sure of your starting point.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

It sounds like the bevel isn't the problem.

I've never honed on film, but I wonder if you need one or two more grits in your progression. I don't know what grits the film comes in, but if you had a 10 micron and a 2 micron or something like that it might help.

Also, there is no point in going to the 0.5 until its as sharp as you can get it on the 5.

You may just need something between those two...

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I worried about that early on, but these are the only grits available where I shop (Lee Valley). And I've seen other members, Niftyshaving for example, report good performance from a 15, 5, 0.3 set.

The 0.5 starts to look worn out or clogged with swarf quickly, but I've tried changing it several times. Plus, through the microscope I can see it wipe out the scratches from the 0.5 surprisingly quickly. The bevel goes practically black and through a magnifying glass looks like a mirror. I've seen several people say that a set of films last for at least 5 razors, but assumed I was overusing the finer two anyway.

For now I can only assume that my strokes are bad. I may try a different razor and try shaving off each grit to see where I'm actually hitting the plateau.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I know that you are in Canada, but I have cheaply mailed things there before. To remove doubt, I'd like to offer that you mail me your razor. I'll assess it under a stereomicroscope and tell you what I find--good or bad. I will set the bevel and mail it back to you. That way you can at least be sure of your starting point.

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It's a tempting offer, although Canada Post is on strike at the moment. I have no sharpened razors for comparison.

Here's a photo of the razor in question, by the way. I can't do a good macro of the bevel but you can at least see the shape with virtually no distortion (sorry, I know the picture's too big). There's a bit about a quarter from the heel where the bevel thins out (on one side only) and all the time I've spent on it has definitely caused a smile at the toe. Scratches on the bevel are visible because I think I took it back to the 5 micron with minimal followup on the 0.5. Apart from the deepest scratches the bevel shines.

Basically, as far as setting the bevel I don't think I'm doing anything blatantly wrong (except for that smile at the toe).

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...ncoTiger_2.jpg

I think I see a "frown" in the shape of the edge. It might be an optical illusion but it is worth checking. If it is then that would explain your difficulty.

Hope this helps,

have you tried the black marker test, take a black magic marker and blacken the edge on both sides , do a few strokes on the film then look at the edge with the loop and it will tell you if you have a set bevel, if you see any black left on the edge that means that the bevel is not right .

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

I think I see a "frown" in the shape of the edge. It might be an optical illusion but it is worth checking. If it is then that would explain your difficulty.

Hope this helps,

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It's an illusion from the lighting making the middle look darker than the ends. The edge is almost perfectly straight with a tiny hint of smile, which is much stronger at the toe.

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Originally Posted by ronnie brown

have you tried the black marker test, take a black magic marker and blacken the edge on both sides , do a few strokes on the film then look at the edge with the loop and it will tell you if you have a set bevel, if you see any black left on the edge that means that the bevel is not right .

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I just tried that out on the 5 micron film, only ever done it before on the coarse film. Within 5 strokes the spine and bevel on both sides seems perfectly clean except for a little bit of the heel on one side. Actually it's a lot more even than I thought it'd be, especially at the toe, which means I probably raised the heel a tiny bit in the same way that's worn it down.

Right now I suspect I'm making sloppy strokes as I go along, alternately lifting the heel very slightly sometimes and dragging the edge along the corner of the hone, ruining my progress.

I've used 2000 grit sandpaper / 5 micron film / CrOxide pasted strop successfully. [I'm in Canada, close to a Lee Valley store.]

I check for a "set bevel" with a 10x loupe. If the bevel is set, and you check with a flourescent lamp with horizontal straight tube, the bevel goes from "bright" to "dark" quite suddenly as you rotate the blade. If you can see a bright line at the very edge of the bevel, and the rest of the bevel is dark, the bevel is _not_ set. If you take it into sunlight, and hold it so that the sun would reflect off a section of dull edge, and you see a bright spot -- the bevel is _not_ set.

It is possible to shave off the 5 micron paper (which is _roughly_ 3000 grit), but not comfortable. If the film "bunches up" ahead of the edge, you'll ruin your work -- sticky film should cure that problem.

After 10-20 laps on a CrOxide pasted strop, the edge rounds _just a little bit_, smooths out a lot (it looks mirror-smooth under 10x), and the shave is pretty good.

My edges have improved since I got a Norton 4K / 8K stone (as everyone here recommended).

Charles

If the bevel is not set, then technically you don't have an edge. Going on from there will polish the sides of the bevel but have little effect on sharpening the edge you have not yet created. The reason bevel-setting is so important is that it establishes the edge which all the later work can improve. Without setting a bevel and the resulting edge, you are moving on to steps 2,3,4, etc. without completing step one. You cannot improve an edge that does not yet exist.

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Originally Posted by Assym

I'm using 3m abrasive film as described in the wiki, 15, 5, and 0.5 micron sheets...

Do any of the successful honers have any advice for me? I'm sick of wasting steel but set on figuring this out.

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I'm not sure if you know what you are even honing with, so I will start there. After looking at my Shapton GS's here is what I use, so you can get an idea in the "micron" sizing":
1K=14.7 micron
4K=3.68 micron
8K=1.84 micron
16K=0.92 micron
30K=0.49 micron

I very seldom use the 30K as it is quite easy to overhone. I took a razor that shaved great on 16K and gave it 10 "blade weight only" passes and then shaved with it the following day & the blade started out wonderful, but digressed before the first pass was complete.

I would have to agree with these guys that the bevel may not be set right. You should consider Utopians offer, but if you are a do it yourselfer I would recommend a progression equivalent to 1,4,8,16K.

The bevel is where it's all at, the rest is polishing the edge for a comfortable shave...

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

If you can see a bright line at the very edge of the bevel, and the rest of the bevel is dark, the bevel is _not_ set. If you take it into sunlight, and hold it so that the sun would reflect off a section of dull edge, and you see a bright spot -- the bevel is _not_ set.
Charles

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Originally Posted by ace

If the bevel is not set, then technically you don't have an edge. Going on from there will polish the sides of the bevel but have little effect on sharpening the edge you have not yet created. The reason bevel-setting is so important is that it establishes the edge which all the later work can improve. Without setting a bevel and the resulting edge, you are moving on to steps 2,3,4, etc. without completing step one. You cannot improve an edge that does not yet exist.

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I understand. This is the basis of my question. I CAN see a thin white 'outline' of the blade at the cutting edge under low magnification (I use the eyepiece from an old 4x rifle scope) when looking at it from the side. Looks the same under my crappy microscope, and the rest of the bevel looks very flat. The bright line appears thick compared to the biggest scratches off the 5 micron film.

**Edit: but I CAN'T see any reflection if I look straight at the edge, only from the side like in the photo.

Obviously that tells me that the edge should be pretty dull, but then why does the blade pass all the other bevel-setting tests, up to and including shaving my face? I don't think it can be an overhoned or a wire edge. It looks the same on both sides and there's a very well-defined transition when the blade starts shaving arm and leg hair, after which I keep going for a bit and there's no noticeable change in sharpness when I backhone, strop or shave.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I'm not sure if you know what you are even honing with, so I will start there. After looking at my Shapton GS's here is what I use, so you can get an idea in the "micron" sizing":
1K=14.7 micron
4K=3.68 micron
8K=1.84 micron
16K=0.92 micron
30K=0.49 micron

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Here are the actual honing films I bought [link]. I followed a grit comparison chart with the same numbers as yours, that shows the 15, 5 and 0.5 micron films as equivalent to (hypothetical) 900, 5-6000 and 15 000 grit Norton stones, so far as they can be compared. I thought the jump from 5 to 0.5 would be much too big, and they don't sell the 1 micron stuff here, but other people have said it works fine. The first two grits are reasonably similar to a 1k - 4k Norton pair anyway, and that's definitely the range where I'm screwing up.

I very nearly caved in and bought a Norton 4/8k this week, but I still have a bunch of film and I don't think the tools are my problem. Plus, as an unemployed graduate, the money is tight.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I would have to agree with these guys that the bevel may not be set right. You should consider Utopians offer, but if you are a do it yourselfer I would recommend a progression equivalent to 1,4,8,16K.

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I'm sure you're probably right. Possibly the gap between "sharp enough to cut hair" and "properly razor sharp" is much larger than I think; surely there's a reason it's the most common newb mistake.

If you are going to continue to work with this razor, I would highly recommend you using a layer of tape on the spine. No since wearing it out while you are learning...I almost said "undue wear".

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

If you are going to continue to work with this razor, I would highly recommend you using a layer of tape on the spine. No since wearing it out while you are learning...I almost said "undue wear".

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Thanks for the advice. My most recent attempt was actually the first time I tried it without tape, wondering if it was affecting my technique.

Yes, it would have. The tape changes the angle and without it you would have to remove more steel on the bevel to get to fresh steel.

The root problem is not obvious from here.

Use a magic marker and make sure the edge goes all the way
to the edge at 15 micron. Use a very light touch...
With the magic marker use a color that is easy to see.
I use a red marker, a thin red line is telling.

5 micron is critical... again use a very light touch. Geneva Cutlery
could be one of the Hard Tempered steel that can micro chip
if you are aggressive and use too much pressure.

Sub micron film.. again a light touch. Too sharp on
fragile steel is a risk. the sticky feeling is a good thing
and tells me that you have polished the 5 micron ridges
flat.... BUT that sticky feeling is still possible on an
edge that is dull as a butter knife. It is telling
you that the edge and the spine have the same surface
contour that the hone has. If the bevel was
well set the sticky feeling is good. If not well
set it just indicates that the surface is done.

Film is fast so the big jumps are not a problem especially
on flat glass. Film is so fast that micro chipping
might be an issue.

I would try a single layer of tape on 5 micron
five hone strokes then remove the tape and apply
your most visible magic marker let it dry. Back to 5 micron
film no tape. A single hone stroke pair should let
you see a thin magic marker line on the edge.

Continue honing and aAfter the thin line is gone five more light hone
strokes.

Now apply one layer of tape and give the
razor five light hone strokes on the submicron
film.

Do not strop at first. Give the edge a short shave
test on an easy part of the face. Now strop the razor
and shave a bit more of the easy bits of the face.
The strop should not dull the edge.

Strop lightly.... perhaps on three sheets of
newspaper rolled up. It may not be stout enough
to take any pressure (good thing). Try one sheet rolled up
and practice a very light touch on the strop.

HNSB is correct do not move to 0.5 too soon.

Utopian's offer is worthy...

Use the magic marker trick on the spine too.
The worn polished surface of the spine should
wipe clean of marker marker with a single hone stroke.

Circles are good. Since glass is so flat circles
accommodate the gentle grin that some razors
have. Walking a set of circles up the hone
on both sides gives a new scratch pattern that
can be seen with a microscope. Always
finish with normal hone strokes.

"**Edit: but I CAN'T see any reflection if I look straight at the edge, only from the side like in the photo."

I have found that looking for reflections on the edge is my best indicator of a set bevel. I use the TNT early on
but of course that just dulls the edge, so I want to find something that confirms a bevel set without physically
affecting the edge. I've had my best results looking at the edge without magnification under a halogen study
lamp. When light hits the edge, one of two things happens. If the the bevel is set and you therefore have a
sharp edge, that edge will "cut" through the light and not reflect it. If the bevel has not been set, the resulting
edge will not be sharp and will be wide enough to reflect light. I find it easier to visualize these reflections with
the naked eye and a really bright study light. If I see a reflection, I can then use magnification to look at the
area more closely, but it is hard sometimes to see the reflections initially using magnification.

Thanks for the advice everyone. As an experiment I tried shaving straight off the 15 micron film (supposedly coarser than a 1k Norton) and got a result only marginally worse than what I've been getting before. The move to 5 micron is clearly where my problem is, although I still don't know which side of the move it's on.

Unfortunately, all my spare films ended up crushed in a corner, full of creases, so I can't try niftyshaving's advice at the moment. I may just ride down to Lee Valley and pick up a Norton 4k/8k instead of new film. Trying to keep the films in perfect condition as I stick them down is causing me at least as much trouble as maintaining the stone is likely to, and I plan on doing plenty more razors after this one if I can figure it out. Apparently I can even get a $10 badger knot while I'm there.

I figure I can still use the 15 micron film as a coarse hone, and the 0.5 as a polisher if and when I can get to that point.

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Originally Posted by Assym

....snip.... I may just ride down to Lee Valley and pick up a Norton 4k/8k instead of new film.
...snip....

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The Norton 4k/8k hone is a work horse.
It will do good things for you for a long time.

The Norton is much cheaper and better in the long run than lapping film. Maybe you can use the 0.5 film to finish after the 8k side.

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Originally Posted by jeness

The Norton is much cheaper and better in the long run than lapping film. Maybe you can use the 0.5 film to finish after the 8k side.

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+1

If you only have one razor there is one answer.
If you have half a dozen+ there is another answer.

The most satisfactory answer for most of the one or two
razor house is to send the blade out to a honemaster.
A honemaster will have a full range of hones and
experiences to bring almost any blade up to snuff.

I have found that film does fill a gap for those
that have knife sharpening tools and need to
take an edge or two to shave-able. At least
until such time that better kit is found.

A Norton 4k/8k or a Naniwa Super Stone 3k/8k Grit Combo Stone
is a good start.

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

+1

If you only have one razor there is one answer.
If you have half a dozen+ there is another answer.

The most satisfactory answer for most of the one or two
razor house is to send the blade out to a honemaster.
A honemaster will have a full range of hones and
experiences to bring almost any blade up to snuff.

I have found that film does fill a gap for those
that have knife sharpening tools and need to
take an edge or two to shave-able. At least
until such time that better kit is found.

A Norton 4k/8k or a Naniwa Super Stone 3k/8k Grit Combo Stone
is a good start.

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Thanks guys. I picked up the Norton yesterday and a marble tile to lap it for only 3 bucks, since it had a corner broken off. Soon I'll try to lap it into shape.

Using the 3M film in lieu of a stone was an experiment, I'd picked up three old razors for spare change and if I'd gotten it to work I would've had a nice shaving set for a fraction the cost of a stone. As soon as I ran into trouble I knew I'd probably end up wasting money if I stuck with it. Plus I picked up more razors. I want to do some restoration and keep collecting.

An uncle passed along three Rolls Razors to me as well, I'm thinking of trying the Norton out on those (dull) blades before my straights. Since the Rolls blades are simple and even, I think I can avoid worrying about my stroke technique and focus on grit progression, sharpness tests and stone prep at first.

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Originally Posted by Assym

Thanks guys. I picked up the Norton yesterday and a marble tile to lap it for only 3 bucks, since it had a corner broken off. Soon I'll try to lap it into shape.

....snip....
An uncle passed along three Rolls Razors to me as well, I'm thinking of trying the Norton out on those (dull) blades before my straights. Since the Rolls blades are simple and even, I think I can avoid worrying about my stroke technique and focus on grit progression, sharpness tests and stone prep at first.

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Rolls blades are slightly different animals...
What will work on a Rolls is not going to be a technique
that works well for straight razors.

You can try stuff.... just do not mix
these two types of razors in the same post
except for the common bit of "latherin".

*Update*

I finally lapped and tried the Norton. Razor's still not getting sharp.

Lapped with 120, 220, then 400 grit sandpaper (on marble) for the 4k, which is now smooth to the touch with a very slight abrasive feel on the razor. Went up to 800 grit on the 8k side, which feel silky smooth. They're flat enough to past the grid test and create lots of suction if I put the stone down on the wet marble. Lapped off less than a 32nd of an inch from each side.

The blade was off the 1k equivalent film when I started, sharp enough to (technically) shave my face. I did an aggressive pyramid starting at 25, shave test: no go. Repeated the pyramid, still not sharp BUT definitely sharper than when I started. Tried a conservative pyramid, no noticeable improvement.

Tried again this morning. Lapped the stone, pyramid from 25, not sharp, another pyramid, still pulling, gave up and shaved my face.

This is where I was stuck with the film: noticeably sharper than the point at which it starts to cut whiskers, but nowhere close to smooth.

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Originally Posted by Assym

*Update*

This is where I was stuck with the film: noticeably sharper than the point at which it starts to cut whiskers, but nowhere close to smooth.

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When this happened to me, I used a pasted strop with CrOxide. It improved the edge from "painful" to "shaveable".

That's a kludge, and I don't like relying on it. I think the real answer is to improve my technique on the 8K stone, till I can get a shave-ready edge off it.

Charles

Small step forward: after a week away from the straight I tried giving it a very small pyramid (something like 3/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/4) with a layer of tape on to work just the end of the bevel I got the blade much sharper. Still pulls except in the easiest spots, but I could hold the razor much more lightly and let it glide a bit. I'm not sure if I should stick to the 8k now or if I still need a few strokes on the 4k. Trying my best to stick to the "less is more" rule.

*Edit: I can now clearly see the polished second bevel (from adding the tape) with my 4x eyepiece, but a few tiny chips show up at 50x. Not many, but I'll keep using the 4k until those are all gone.

I also had the best lather I've made, by far, and I've been using soap and a brush since long before I got a straight. That could've made the razor seem sharper, but I didn't notice much change later on when the lather was getting dry.

Second update: more improvement

After a few more days of growing my whiskers out I took the blade back to the 4k. I could just BARELY see a glint of light from the largest chip through my 4x magnifier, and only because I knew where to find it. It took a lot longer to get that chip out than I thought it would, but I started adding strokes from the 8k as it got smaller. I can tell that I'm introducing new microchips as I go along, I can see them at 50x if I shine a light up from behind the blade.

Shave tested nonetheless. Definitely smoother than before and a closer shave, especially on my neck and upper lip. Coupled with my newfound ability to make my puck of Williams "explode" I think I'm finally on the track to success. Thanks for all the help and advice you guys, pretty confident now.