Thread: How sharp can you get without a set bevel?

I've been trying to learn to hone since last year (intermittently) and haven't had success. I can get my Geneva Cutlery Tiger sharp enough to shave my arms or my legs, and it'll shave my face, but not closely and not without tugging the whole time. I've read everything I can find but I'm not sure where my problem is.

I'm using 3m abrasive film as described in the wiki, 15, 5, and 0.5 micron sheets on a plate of glass. I've seen this exact progression lauded at least twice (besides the wiki guide), so I know it's not the film, which I've tried rinsing and replacing. I picked the razor because it had a really straight, even blade and spine.

I've tried pyramids on the 5 & 0.5 after setting the bevel, I've tried straight progressions and I've tried using a microscope (between 50x and 400x) to watch the scratch patterns and look for microchips while trying to learn the tests by feel. I've also tried it with and without tape on the spine.

Every time I start from scratch I set the bevel, move up to a 0.5 polish then hit a sharpness plateau and no amount of honing on the 5 micron seems to improve it. The thing is, everything seems to point to the bevel being fully set. I never leave the 15 micron until I can feel the whole blade sticking to my thumb pad, every part of it will cut both arm hair (mine is very light) and leg hair in any direction. When I used tape I changed it frequently. It will also pass the thumbnail test, but I don't usually use it. I even tried setting a microbevel once by doubling up the tape, starting with a few strokes on 0.5 film, and eventually the 5 micron without any noticable improvement.

**Edit: another thing that confuses me is that I typically get a feeling of suction as I finish up on the 0.5 micron film, like people have said a sharp razor will produce. Obviously my stropping could be suspect but I'm positive I've tried skipping it.

I know that not setting the bevel fully is the main newbie mistake, but can I honestly be doing that and still be able to (technically) shave my face with it? Or must my stroke just not be good enough?

A while back I thought my problem was a convex bevel. The 15 micron film is stiff and becomes arched when cut into hone-sized strips. Through the microscope it looked like the scratches would always be polished out in the middle of the bevel first. I figured that when I stuck the film to the glass the spring in the film was sucking up extra water, giving it too much cushion. I swapped to the flatter adhesive-backed film which seemed to solve the problem in the microscope, but the razor hasn't gotten any sharper.

Do any of the successful honers have any advice for me? I'm sick of wasting steel but set on figuring this out.

It sounds like the bevel isn't the problem.

I've never honed on film, but I wonder if you need one or two more grits in your progression. I don't know what grits the film comes in, but if you had a 10 micron and a 2 micron or something like that it might help.

Also, there is no point in going to the 0.5 until its as sharp as you can get it on the 5.

You may just need something between those two...

I know that you are in Canada, but I have cheaply mailed things there before. To remove doubt, I'd like to offer that you mail me your razor. I'll assess it under a stereomicroscope and tell you what I find--good or bad. I will set the bevel and mail it back to you. That way you can at least be sure of your starting point.

Originally Posted by HNSB

It sounds like the bevel isn't the problem.

I've never honed on film, but I wonder if you need one or two more grits in your progression. I don't know what grits the film comes in, but if you had a 10 micron and a 2 micron or something like that it might help.

Also, there is no point in going to the 0.5 until its as sharp as you can get it on the 5.

You may just need something between those two...

I worried about that early on, but these are the only grits available where I shop (Lee Valley). And I've seen other members, Niftyshaving for example, report good performance from a 15, 5, 0.3 set.

The 0.5 starts to look worn out or clogged with swarf quickly, but I've tried changing it several times. Plus, through the microscope I can see it wipe out the scratches from the 0.5 surprisingly quickly. The bevel goes practically black and through a magnifying glass looks like a mirror. I've seen several people say that a set of films last for at least 5 razors, but assumed I was overusing the finer two anyway.

For now I can only assume that my strokes are bad. I may try a different razor and try shaving off each grit to see where I'm actually hitting the plateau.

Originally Posted by Utopian

I know that you are in Canada, but I have cheaply mailed things there before. To remove doubt, I'd like to offer that you mail me your razor. I'll assess it under a stereomicroscope and tell you what I find--good or bad. I will set the bevel and mail it back to you. That way you can at least be sure of your starting point.

It's a tempting offer, although Canada Post is on strike at the moment. I have no sharpened razors for comparison.

Here's a photo of the razor in question, by the way. I can't do a good macro of the bevel but you can at least see the shape with virtually no distortion (sorry, I know the picture's too big). There's a bit about a quarter from the heel where the bevel thins out (on one side only) and all the time I've spent on it has definitely caused a smile at the toe. Scratches on the bevel are visible because I think I took it back to the 5 micron with minimal followup on the 0.5. Apart from the deepest scratches the bevel shines.

Basically, as far as setting the bevel I don't think I'm doing anything blatantly wrong (except for that smile at the toe).

I think I see a "frown" in the shape of the edge. It might be an optical illusion but it is worth checking. If it is then that would explain your difficulty.

Hope this helps,

have you tried the black marker test, take a black magic marker and blacken the edge on both sides , do a few strokes on the film then look at the edge with the loop and it will tell you if you have a set bevel, if you see any black left on the edge that means that the bevel is not right .

Originally Posted by randydance062449

I think I see a "frown" in the shape of the edge. It might be an optical illusion but it is worth checking. If it is then that would explain your difficulty.

Hope this helps,

It's an illusion from the lighting making the middle look darker than the ends. The edge is almost perfectly straight with a tiny hint of smile, which is much stronger at the toe.

Originally Posted by ronnie brown

have you tried the black marker test, take a black magic marker and blacken the edge on both sides , do a few strokes on the film then look at the edge with the loop and it will tell you if you have a set bevel, if you see any black left on the edge that means that the bevel is not right .

I just tried that out on the 5 micron film, only ever done it before on the coarse film. Within 5 strokes the spine and bevel on both sides seems perfectly clean except for a little bit of the heel on one side. Actually it's a lot more even than I thought it'd be, especially at the toe, which means I probably raised the heel a tiny bit in the same way that's worn it down.

Right now I suspect I'm making sloppy strokes as I go along, alternately lifting the heel very slightly sometimes and dragging the edge along the corner of the hone, ruining my progress.

I've used 2000 grit sandpaper / 5 micron film / CrOxide pasted strop successfully. [I'm in Canada, close to a Lee Valley store.]

I check for a "set bevel" with a 10x loupe. If the bevel is set, and you check with a flourescent lamp with horizontal straight tube, the bevel goes from "bright" to "dark" quite suddenly as you rotate the blade. If you can see a bright line at the very edge of the bevel, and the rest of the bevel is dark, the bevel is _not_ set. If you take it into sunlight, and hold it so that the sun would reflect off a section of dull edge, and you see a bright spot -- the bevel is _not_ set.

It is possible to shave off the 5 micron paper (which is _roughly_ 3000 grit), but not comfortable. If the film "bunches up" ahead of the edge, you'll ruin your work -- sticky film should cure that problem.

After 10-20 laps on a CrOxide pasted strop, the edge rounds _just a little bit_, smooths out a lot (it looks mirror-smooth under 10x), and the shave is pretty good.

My edges have improved since I got a Norton 4K / 8K stone (as everyone here recommended).

Charles