Thread: How sharp can you get without a set bevel?

If the bevel is not set, then technically you don't have an edge. Going on from there will polish the sides of the bevel but have little effect on sharpening the edge you have not yet created. The reason bevel-setting is so important is that it establishes the edge which all the later work can improve. Without setting a bevel and the resulting edge, you are moving on to steps 2,3,4, etc. without completing step one. You cannot improve an edge that does not yet exist.

Originally Posted by Assym

I'm using 3m abrasive film as described in the wiki, 15, 5, and 0.5 micron sheets...

Do any of the successful honers have any advice for me? I'm sick of wasting steel but set on figuring this out.

I'm not sure if you know what you are even honing with, so I will start there. After looking at my Shapton GS's here is what I use, so you can get an idea in the "micron" sizing":
1K=14.7 micron
4K=3.68 micron
8K=1.84 micron
16K=0.92 micron
30K=0.49 micron

I very seldom use the 30K as it is quite easy to overhone. I took a razor that shaved great on 16K and gave it 10 "blade weight only" passes and then shaved with it the following day & the blade started out wonderful, but digressed before the first pass was complete.

I would have to agree with these guys that the bevel may not be set right. You should consider Utopians offer, but if you are a do it yourselfer I would recommend a progression equivalent to 1,4,8,16K.

The bevel is where it's all at, the rest is polishing the edge for a comfortable shave...

Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

If you can see a bright line at the very edge of the bevel, and the rest of the bevel is dark, the bevel is _not_ set. If you take it into sunlight, and hold it so that the sun would reflect off a section of dull edge, and you see a bright spot -- the bevel is _not_ set.
Charles

Originally Posted by ace

If the bevel is not set, then technically you don't have an edge. Going on from there will polish the sides of the bevel but have little effect on sharpening the edge you have not yet created. The reason bevel-setting is so important is that it establishes the edge which all the later work can improve. Without setting a bevel and the resulting edge, you are moving on to steps 2,3,4, etc. without completing step one. You cannot improve an edge that does not yet exist.

I understand. This is the basis of my question. I CAN see a thin white 'outline' of the blade at the cutting edge under low magnification (I use the eyepiece from an old 4x rifle scope) when looking at it from the side. Looks the same under my crappy microscope, and the rest of the bevel looks very flat. The bright line appears thick compared to the biggest scratches off the 5 micron film.

**Edit: but I CAN'T see any reflection if I look straight at the edge, only from the side like in the photo.

Obviously that tells me that the edge should be pretty dull, but then why does the blade pass all the other bevel-setting tests, up to and including shaving my face? I don't think it can be an overhoned or a wire edge. It looks the same on both sides and there's a very well-defined transition when the blade starts shaving arm and leg hair, after which I keep going for a bit and there's no noticeable change in sharpness when I backhone, strop or shave.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I'm not sure if you know what you are even honing with, so I will start there. After looking at my Shapton GS's here is what I use, so you can get an idea in the "micron" sizing":
1K=14.7 micron
4K=3.68 micron
8K=1.84 micron
16K=0.92 micron
30K=0.49 micron

Here are the actual honing films I bought [link]. I followed a grit comparison chart with the same numbers as yours, that shows the 15, 5 and 0.5 micron films as equivalent to (hypothetical) 900, 5-6000 and 15 000 grit Norton stones, so far as they can be compared. I thought the jump from 5 to 0.5 would be much too big, and they don't sell the 1 micron stuff here, but other people have said it works fine. The first two grits are reasonably similar to a 1k - 4k Norton pair anyway, and that's definitely the range where I'm screwing up.

I very nearly caved in and bought a Norton 4/8k this week, but I still have a bunch of film and I don't think the tools are my problem. Plus, as an unemployed graduate, the money is tight.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I would have to agree with these guys that the bevel may not be set right. You should consider Utopians offer, but if you are a do it yourselfer I would recommend a progression equivalent to 1,4,8,16K.

I'm sure you're probably right. Possibly the gap between "sharp enough to cut hair" and "properly razor sharp" is much larger than I think; surely there's a reason it's the most common newb mistake.

If you are going to continue to work with this razor, I would highly recommend you using a layer of tape on the spine. No since wearing it out while you are learning...I almost said "undue wear".

Originally Posted by shooter74743

If you are going to continue to work with this razor, I would highly recommend you using a layer of tape on the spine. No since wearing it out while you are learning...I almost said "undue wear".

Thanks for the advice. My most recent attempt was actually the first time I tried it without tape, wondering if it was affecting my technique.

Yes, it would have. The tape changes the angle and without it you would have to remove more steel on the bevel to get to fresh steel.

The root problem is not obvious from here.

Use a magic marker and make sure the edge goes all the way
to the edge at 15 micron. Use a very light touch...
With the magic marker use a color that is easy to see.
I use a red marker, a thin red line is telling.

5 micron is critical... again use a very light touch. Geneva Cutlery
could be one of the Hard Tempered steel that can micro chip
if you are aggressive and use too much pressure.

Sub micron film.. again a light touch. Too sharp on
fragile steel is a risk. the sticky feeling is a good thing
and tells me that you have polished the 5 micron ridges
flat.... BUT that sticky feeling is still possible on an
edge that is dull as a butter knife. It is telling
you that the edge and the spine have the same surface
contour that the hone has. If the bevel was
well set the sticky feeling is good. If not well
set it just indicates that the surface is done.

Film is fast so the big jumps are not a problem especially
on flat glass. Film is so fast that micro chipping
might be an issue.

I would try a single layer of tape on 5 micron
five hone strokes then remove the tape and apply
your most visible magic marker let it dry. Back to 5 micron
film no tape. A single hone stroke pair should let
you see a thin magic marker line on the edge.

Continue honing and aAfter the thin line is gone five more light hone
strokes.

Now apply one layer of tape and give the
razor five light hone strokes on the submicron
film.

Do not strop at first. Give the edge a short shave
test on an easy part of the face. Now strop the razor
and shave a bit more of the easy bits of the face.
The strop should not dull the edge.

Strop lightly.... perhaps on three sheets of
newspaper rolled up. It may not be stout enough
to take any pressure (good thing). Try one sheet rolled up
and practice a very light touch on the strop.

HNSB is correct do not move to 0.5 too soon.

Utopian's offer is worthy...

Use the magic marker trick on the spine too.
The worn polished surface of the spine should
wipe clean of marker marker with a single hone stroke.

Circles are good. Since glass is so flat circles
accommodate the gentle grin that some razors
have. Walking a set of circles up the hone
on both sides gives a new scratch pattern that
can be seen with a microscope. Always
finish with normal hone strokes.

"**Edit: but I CAN'T see any reflection if I look straight at the edge, only from the side like in the photo."

I have found that looking for reflections on the edge is my best indicator of a set bevel. I use the TNT early on
but of course that just dulls the edge, so I want to find something that confirms a bevel set without physically
affecting the edge. I've had my best results looking at the edge without magnification under a halogen study
lamp. When light hits the edge, one of two things happens. If the the bevel is set and you therefore have a
sharp edge, that edge will "cut" through the light and not reflect it. If the bevel has not been set, the resulting
edge will not be sharp and will be wide enough to reflect light. I find it easier to visualize these reflections with
the naked eye and a really bright study light. If I see a reflection, I can then use magnification to look at the
area more closely, but it is hard sometimes to see the reflections initially using magnification.

Thanks for the advice everyone. As an experiment I tried shaving straight off the 15 micron film (supposedly coarser than a 1k Norton) and got a result only marginally worse than what I've been getting before. The move to 5 micron is clearly where my problem is, although I still don't know which side of the move it's on.

Unfortunately, all my spare films ended up crushed in a corner, full of creases, so I can't try niftyshaving's advice at the moment. I may just ride down to Lee Valley and pick up a Norton 4k/8k instead of new film. Trying to keep the films in perfect condition as I stick them down is causing me at least as much trouble as maintaining the stone is likely to, and I plan on doing plenty more razors after this one if I can figure it out. Apparently I can even get a $10 badger knot while I'm there.

I figure I can still use the 15 micron film as a coarse hone, and the 0.5 as a polisher if and when I can get to that point.