Too sharp?

Is there such a thing as a SR edge being too sharp?

In the kitchen knife world, many pro's find that a knife can be too sharp. Too sharp being an edge that falls through the item(s) being cut with no feedback, and an edge that's fragile, doesn't last, and dulls quickly. There's a balance there between sharpness, feedback and longevity.

I've noticed on my own SR that sometimes my edge is good and I can go for many shaves between hitting the stones and/or loaded strops (just plain leather stropping before each shave). Sometimes after a sharpening session (4k, 8k stones + boron on balsa, Cro on balsa, and plain leather) it feels like the edge was GREAT for one shave and then after stropping for the next one, it's crap and needs some work again.

Yeah, I know the first response is gonna be something like "you don't know what you're doing and you're inconsistent. You should send it to a pro and have it done properly." I know that, and that response isn't productive.

My goal has been up to this point to get the sharpest edge I can. Do you guys sharpen to the keenest edge you can, or are there concerns about an edge being so sharp that's it's fragile and will dull quickly? Cheers! mpp

I thought edge durability was more a factor of the bevel angle and how well the edge is used/cared for, not just plain sharpness. As such, I don't see sharpness as relating to edge durability on a razor.

I do not think there is such thing as too sharp. But some things can cause an edge to become harsh as well as sharp and I don't like harsh edges.

Smooth and sharp is what I shoot for.

You may not want to hear it, but if you loose your edge after one shave to the extent that you need rehoning, something is wrong. You don't have to send your razor out to be honed, but I do think it would be good if you could sit down with someone and get things sorted out person to person.

I am by no means a pro but that is unusual. It has been a while since I have had that problem. What kind of razor do you have? Quality of steel? You say you get a good shave then when you strop could you have issues with your stropping technique? When you are honing your razor you must have a bevel that is perfectly set. The bevel is the foundation on which everything is built upon. The symptoms that you are describing are typical of a razor that needs to have a bevel set. Boron will quickly put an edge on a razor by if you are just doing the very edge it will be short lived because there is not a good bevel holding up the edge.

I will admit that I have not had much experience stopping at 8K and expecting a razor to perform. I have always been one to go to 16K then pastes or whatever. For me, personally, the longer that I stayed on the rocks up the progression the more stable my edges became. I know that a lot of very experienced people will say it is not needed.....but it works for me.

Take Care,
Richard.

It's referred to as over honed. It's quite uncommon, but it would happen a lot to me when I started messing with CrOx. Could also be an imperfection in the balsa flatness.

Basically, you are tearing away at the edge in some way at some point in your honing. It is not a big error, but more a slight problem, and an unusual one, on the learning curve.

The edge becomes brittle or too thin to support itself.

sometimes correctible by stropping.

I don't think personally an edge can be too sharp, but I do think you can hone an edge past its physical capacity to maintain its structure. I'd personally consider an edge that is so fragile that it dulls quickly to be essentially overhoned. I think you may be meaning the same thing and we are just quibbling over definitions, but perhaps I am wrong (it's generally the norm, actually).

I'm never sure when I say this whether it helps or hinders, but I have always thought that the secret to good honing is knowing when to stop. Not that I am saying I can put that into practice all, or any, of the time, but I do know that when I keep that idea in the back of my head my honing comes out better, generally. Yes, it is kind of vague and lacking in detailed instructional qualities, but it works for me.

James.

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Originally Posted by mpukas

Is there such a thing as a SR edge being too sharp?
....
In the kitchen knife world, many pro's find
.... snip...

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I would invite you to reread the translation of "Honing Razors and Kamisori"
that JimR posted. http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post777909

If I got the right thread you will find a comment by the original author "Kousuke Iwasaki"
that when used with a correct angle a razor should stay sharp for 200 faces
with only stropping but with an incorrect angle maybe ten...

Hidden in this good little paper are some honing and stropping gems to ponder.

Yes an edge can be too fine/ fragile for the steel... yet with modern
hones and pasted finishing strops this should be uncommon.

So many great things have been said in these responses. Thanks so much - I really appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

if you loose your edge after one shave to the extent that you need rehoning, something is wrong. You don't have to send your razor out to be honed, but I do think it would be good if you could sit down with someone and get things sorted out person to person.

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Yeah, something is not quite right. I wish there was someone experienced in my area that I could sit down with, Until then, all I have to go is youtbue vid's and what you guys post here.

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Originally Posted by riooso

What kind of razor do you have? Quality of steel? You say you get a good shave then when you strop could you have issues with your stropping technique? When you are honing your razor you must have a bevel that is perfectly set. The bevel is the foundation on which everything is built upon. The symptoms that you are describing are typical of a razor that needs to have a bevel set. Boron will quickly put an edge on a razor by if you are just doing the very edge it will be short lived because there is not a good bevel holding up the edge.

I will admit that I have not had much experience stopping at 8K and expecting a razor to perform. I have always been one to go to 16K then pastes or whatever. For me, personally, the longer that I stayed on the rocks up the progression the more stable my edges became. I know that a lot of very experienced people will say it is not needed.....but it works for me.

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I have a new basic Dovo 5/8 f/ SRD. I've only used 4k and 8k stones since it's new and I don't think it needs a 1k to set the bevel. I eventually plan to get a higher grit finishing stone, but for now 8k and pastes are all I have.

I agree - in my experiences w/ sharpening kitchen knives - that the edge f/ a stone is better than the edge f/ a loaded strop in terms of durability. I find when I use the stones then loaded strops, my edge is quite good. If after several shaves I hit the loaded strops for a few passes, the edge doesn't last and feels grabby and pulls on my beard,a nd I get a bit of razor burn.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It's referred to as over honed. It's quite uncommon, but it would happen a lot to me when I started messing with CrOx. Could also be an imperfection in the balsa flatness.

Basically, you are tearing away at the edge in some way at some point in your honing. It is not a big error, but more a slight problem, and an unusual one, on the learning curve.

The edge becomes brittle or too thin to support itself.

sometimes correctable by stropping.

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That's an excellent point(s). I could be over honing. I prolly make too many passes on the loaded strops and the edge becomes too brittle. I think my stropping technique is getting better and better - on both my hanging strop f/ SRD and my custom made one w/ bridal double leather - 'cuz after a couple of bad shaves and some careful stropping on plain leather I can get the edge back to being pretty good again.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I don't think personally an edge can be too sharp, but I do think you can hone an edge past its physical capacity to maintain its structure. I'd personally consider an edge that is so fragile that it dulls quickly to be essentially overhoned. I think you may be meaning the same thing and we are just quibbling over definitions...

I'm never sure when I say this whether it helps or hinders, but I have always thought that the secret to good honing is knowing when to stop.

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Yeah that a great point. That's a secret to many things in life - don't try to do too much. More is not always better.

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

I would invite you to reread the translation of "Honing Razors and Kamisori"
that JimR posted. http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post777909

Yes an edge can be too fine/ fragile for the steel... yet with modern
hones and pasted finishing strops this should be uncommon.

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Sweet! I'll check the link out when I get a second or two.

Thanks again all! Thes responses have really opened up some new things for me to consider. Cheers! mpp

since you have a 4/8k norton maybe you could try a pyramid as described here:
Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki

if done correctly it will give you a great edge off the 8k, this way you can even calibrate how the edge should feel when you are coming off the 8k even if you do not use pyramids before you go to higher grit stone.

I have Shapton GlassStones, not the Norton combo. Not matter though.

I haven't tried the pyramid method. Not really a fan, can't say why. But I'll give it a go so I can see the results for myself. Thanks! mpp

When I used to use the 4K/8K combo exclusively, I would sometimes come up with a harsh edge on some razors. The thing I always tried to do and still do with this format is to go back to the 8K with 3-5 no pressure X strokes followed by regular stropping and try to get the razor to where it will shave effortlessly. It may take a couple tries. Another tactic as mentioned that has worked well for me was to pyramid at 1 stroke no press on the 4K followed by 3 on the 8K and then another 1 stroke on the 4K followed by 5 on the 8K. I think the more you play around with this, the better your edges will start getting. When you are getting as close as you describe, sending them out is not the answer. Building on your successes is.

Keep us posted.

Saying a razor is too sharp is like saying I'm too rich or too hansom.

A razor can NEVER be too sharp. Once you reach a certain point it becomes damaged however that is really hard to do if you know what you are doing and especially with finishing hones.

Totally agree with Nelson. You can overhone but it's not possible for an edge to be too sharp.

This is Natural.Every single person when start to learn honing tries this at first.
The day you will find out when to stop You can call yourself Pro on honing.
Not easy to get there but it is reachable.
gl

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Originally Posted by mpukas

My goal has been up to this point to get the sharpest edge I can.

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It seems a razor is an unusual thing. It has to shave whiskers but not easily cut the face. An interesting trade off. "Sharp" is an interesting term and commonly thought of as the smallest point where the two sides of the razor meet. Any edge has a topography. It would seem that obtaining the correct topography on the edge is a better way of thinking about honing rather than "sharp." Once the razor is sharp enough to cut hair easilty, it would seem perfecting the topography is the issue? And, this topography is subjective from razor to razor and from shaver to shaver....

+1 & that perfect meeting of the 2 sides can happen off a DMT C but that certainly ain't the point when it's shave ready. The mid & end stages is where the comfort starts to get built in.

Agree with what has been said. Definitely can not have an edge too sharp, but an edge can be too harsh in my opinion. That's why sharp AND smooth are what makes a good edge.

One thing I learned fom Lynn and other members is that the object of honing is not to get an edge that is sharpening contest, but do develop a repeatble honing routine(s) (minus odd blade shapes)that give luxurant shaves.

I have learned(slowly) that it is not a "sharpest is better" approach and getting much better shaves and stable edges.(which as mentioned has alot to do with proper shaving technique)

It might be money well spent to buy the Radio Shack microscope for $12. That will probably answer your own question, and help in the future.

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Originally Posted by LarryAndro

It might be money well spent to buy the Radio Shack microscope for $12. That will probably answer your own question, and help in the future.

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That is a great tool to use and a big confidence builder for me. When you can see at 100x that the edge is smooth without chips, you eliminate the honing as a variable when you are learning how to shave with a straight. I might add it took a while before I learned to hold the thing still enough to get a good look.

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Originally Posted by CaliforniaCajun

... I might add it took a while before I learned to hold the [Radio Shack microscope] still enough to get a good look.

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I looked up the order information on the microscope...

Radio Shack Illuminated Mini Microscope
Illuminated Microscope - RadioShack.com
catalog# 63-1313
2 AAA batteries, and magnifies 60x to 100x

I have attached several pictures showing how to hold the microscope steady using play dough. It holds the razor still for viewing, but still makes it very easy to move the scope up and down the blade (resting on the spine, away from the edge.) Using this method, you can easily view both sides of the blade along the entire bevel in about one minute.

(Notice that I use a 100W light bulb in a goose neck lamp as my light source instead of the built in (too dim) light.)

It is true that the scope won't show sharpness, as Jimbo said. So, the microscope might or might help. In my opinion, most of the problems with a blade are due to edge and bevel abnormalities that are visible to the microscope. Maybe, a serrated looked edge, or wavy edge that isn't perfectly straight, or deep gouges in the blade that you don't think should exist. Something like that.

Sorry Larry -I deleted my post. For some reason after the first edit the last paragraph refused to show, and in the end I gave up trying to fight with it.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Sorry Larry -I deleted my post. For some reason after the first edit the last paragraph refused to show, and in the end I gave up trying to fight with it. James.

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But, you made some great points! Even half your thoughts were better than nothing! But, I understand that it might not have been complete and you might not have wanted it sent to everyone.

When I first came around to SRP there was a school of thought that edges should be smoothed of any scratch pattern left by the previous grit before moving to the next grit. If you were influenced by this school, or were an adherent to that proposition, obviously you needed a microscope. Fortunately for me, at the time, I got a variety of shave ready razors from some of the best honemeisters.

I was able to examine those with my B&L 40x stereo scope and see that the shave ready edges , honed by the honemeisters had definite scratch patterns. The no scratch school was largely made up of guys who honed Japanese tools, planes, chisels and such where, if I understand it correctly, beauty of the finished bevel is paramount.

So I focused on sharpening the razor and paid no attention to the scratch pattern removal. When a bevel passed the TNT I went on to the sharpening. When it was good on the TPT and popping hair off my arm or leg on to the finishing. I will always check for micro chipping or other anomalies before I start honing and sometimes while I'm making progress.

Other than the preliminary examination I rarely use the microscope anymore. I depend on my 30x eye loupe as I hone and that has been working very well for me. My microscope is relegated to checking tattooing needles that I solder into groups and onto bars for work. The reason I got it in the first place. :)

It is pretty rare these days that I will go to the microscope unless I can't get the edge where I want it. It definitely is a good tool though. As far as the notion of too sharp, I remain pretty lost. I have been on the hunt for the "Perfect Edge" forever and would say that I still am. So to me, that means an edge that is perfectly sharp and provides a perfectly smooth and perfectly close shave. This is why I like the shave test so much........I think.....lol. But in any case, every time I think I have the perfect shave, I just keep looking for a more perfect shave. The differences between a really nice shave and a great shave and a perfect shave seem awful minute, but when you have one you know..............and when it comes from a razor you honed, you'll enjoy it all the better. That really is perfect!

Have fun.

I agree with JimmyHAD about scratch patterns. Say you have a 6 hone progression. By the time you are on your last hone, in all likelihood the "evidence" left by the 3rd hone will be metal shavings in your water pan or on the hone. So, I can't get too concerned about what was done on the previous hones.

Basically, you can hone smart or not. But, even if you hone poorly on many of the hones, or take way too much time, or hone with figure 8s instead of figure Zs, you might still get a good edge.

As everyone says, the results are what counts. And, shaving is the result.

I don't use a microscope but a 30X Loupe and it is excellent for setting a bevel and checking for micro-chipping. When I started out I used it a lot more than I do now. Once you have been honing a while you can usually feel the edge on a stone that have used a lot and can usually tell if something it wrong. I keep track of the honing process by looking at the reflecting light on the bevel. It tells a lot.

Take Care,
Richard

Last night I honed my razor. I used the 1K GS to do some bevel work. Basically I used a few light passes and evened out the bevel as best I could, observed using the light refelction. Honestly it didn't need much work. Prior, I could see some areas that were catching light.

Then I did a pyramid set on the 4k & 8k GS's. Not excatly to the set listed on the site here, but something like 20-20, 16-20, 12-20, 10-16, etc. At the end the edge felt sharp and "grabby"; it would pop arm hair w/out touching the skin. The edge would grab the standing hairs and with a slight pressure woul dbite into them and pop them off.

From there I preceeded to judiciously strop on boron on balsa, cro on balsa and plain leather.

The edge was sharp, but when I shaved w/ it, it wasn't what I would call smooth. It was still a bit grabby, and when I did the ATG pass I got quite a few ___, what is it called when you sorta shave the top of a hair folicle off and get a micro cut or razor burn? The edge wasn't noticeably better than before when I've done a simple 4k to 8k progression and then some stropping. Not saying that the pyramid wasn't useful. I think there's somehting in my stropping equipment/technique.

I think my next investment is gonna be a higher grit finishig stone in the 12k-20k range. Suggestions? Thanks again to everyone for the great feedback! Cheers! mpp

IMHO you should work on getting good shaving edges from your 8k before you move to higher grit stones.
If your edge is not good off 8k it will not improve by adding a finer stone.

That being said the options for high grit stones are multiple, and depending on price too.
Synthetics : Naniwa 12k SS, 16k GS.
Naturals:Fine Coticule, Thuringian, Escher, Jnat,

I would try the more traditional pyramid before you totally make up your mind. You still may like the other way better in any case. I would go 15-15, 10-10, 5-5, 1-3 and 1-5. Then if needed, you can always either repeat the 1-3 and 1-5 or just try 5 no pressure X strokes on the 8K. Actually you can even try the final pyramids now to see if it improves that edge a little.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

IMHO you should work on getting good shaving edges from your 8k before you move to higher grit stones.
If your edge is not good off 8k it will not improve by adding a finer stone.

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This is the truth. If you aren't getting all you can out of the 8k going to a 10, 12 or 16k is putting icing on a half baked cake. I also agree with Lynn on giving the pyramids a chance. I use that method a lot of the time. It worked when I started out and it still works today. Particularly like to use it on smiling blades.

I'll give the pyramid another try using Lynn's #'s.

Here's another thing I noticed last night after using the 1k GS that I hadn't noticed before, since I hadn't used the 1k on this SR before; the bevels on each side of the blade appear to my naked eye to be different sizes. The bevel on the back of the blade, opposite side of the Dovo insignia, seems to be wider than the bevel on the front side. This is after honing on the 1k. When the razor was new, and since using it on the 4k & 8k, the bevels appeared to be the same.

If this is true, then I assume that's it due to the edge not being exactly centered on the spine therefore the angle of each bevel is different, therefore the size of each bevel is different.

If this is not the case, then there's something going on w/ my honing. I lay the spine on the stone the same way on each side in each direction. I'm not taping the spine.

Or maybe I'm just imagining this... :shrug:

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Originally Posted by mpukas

....snip...
Here's another thing I noticed last night after using the 1k GS that I hadn't noticed before,
since I hadn't used the 1k on this SR before; the bevels on each side of the blade appear
to my naked eye to be different sizes.
...snip...

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Not to worry...
As long as both sides have a clean bevel that
generates a clean edge from toe to heel you
are good to go.

Some difference is normal and expected. In
the future you can give the skinny side some
extra circles or Japanese style hone strokes
with the goal of minimizing the difference over
a year. Do not rush to correct it.

It can be a result of uneven pressure so do
slow down and hone with just the weight of
the razor. As long as you are honing with fine
hones (4K and finer) this should not get out
of hand and prove to be a problem.

My own honing gave the same pattern you describe--the back side bevel wider than the front side bevel. It was because my return stroke was a little stronger than my away stroke. Niftyshaving's solution is the one to try if you decide to even the bevels up.

Is there really a Gyptucky, CO? I'm in Grand Junction, and have some finer hones you can try out if you're in the area.

Best wishes to you.