Thread: Too sharp?

Is there such a thing as a SR edge being too sharp?

In the kitchen knife world, many pro's find that a knife can be too sharp. Too sharp being an edge that falls through the item(s) being cut with no feedback, and an edge that's fragile, doesn't last, and dulls quickly. There's a balance there between sharpness, feedback and longevity.

I've noticed on my own SR that sometimes my edge is good and I can go for many shaves between hitting the stones and/or loaded strops (just plain leather stropping before each shave). Sometimes after a sharpening session (4k, 8k stones + boron on balsa, Cro on balsa, and plain leather) it feels like the edge was GREAT for one shave and then after stropping for the next one, it's crap and needs some work again.

Yeah, I know the first response is gonna be something like "you don't know what you're doing and you're inconsistent. You should send it to a pro and have it done properly." I know that, and that response isn't productive.

My goal has been up to this point to get the sharpest edge I can. Do you guys sharpen to the keenest edge you can, or are there concerns about an edge being so sharp that's it's fragile and will dull quickly? Cheers! mpp

I thought edge durability was more a factor of the bevel angle and how well the edge is used/cared for, not just plain sharpness. As such, I don't see sharpness as relating to edge durability on a razor.

I do not think there is such thing as too sharp. But some things can cause an edge to become harsh as well as sharp and I don't like harsh edges.

Smooth and sharp is what I shoot for.

You may not want to hear it, but if you loose your edge after one shave to the extent that you need rehoning, something is wrong. You don't have to send your razor out to be honed, but I do think it would be good if you could sit down with someone and get things sorted out person to person.

I am by no means a pro but that is unusual. It has been a while since I have had that problem. What kind of razor do you have? Quality of steel? You say you get a good shave then when you strop could you have issues with your stropping technique? When you are honing your razor you must have a bevel that is perfectly set. The bevel is the foundation on which everything is built upon. The symptoms that you are describing are typical of a razor that needs to have a bevel set. Boron will quickly put an edge on a razor by if you are just doing the very edge it will be short lived because there is not a good bevel holding up the edge.

I will admit that I have not had much experience stopping at 8K and expecting a razor to perform. I have always been one to go to 16K then pastes or whatever. For me, personally, the longer that I stayed on the rocks up the progression the more stable my edges became. I know that a lot of very experienced people will say it is not needed.....but it works for me.

Take Care,
Richard.

It's referred to as over honed. It's quite uncommon, but it would happen a lot to me when I started messing with CrOx. Could also be an imperfection in the balsa flatness.

Basically, you are tearing away at the edge in some way at some point in your honing. It is not a big error, but more a slight problem, and an unusual one, on the learning curve.

The edge becomes brittle or too thin to support itself.

sometimes correctible by stropping.

I don't think personally an edge can be too sharp, but I do think you can hone an edge past its physical capacity to maintain its structure. I'd personally consider an edge that is so fragile that it dulls quickly to be essentially overhoned. I think you may be meaning the same thing and we are just quibbling over definitions, but perhaps I am wrong (it's generally the norm, actually).

I'm never sure when I say this whether it helps or hinders, but I have always thought that the secret to good honing is knowing when to stop. Not that I am saying I can put that into practice all, or any, of the time, but I do know that when I keep that idea in the back of my head my honing comes out better, generally. Yes, it is kind of vague and lacking in detailed instructional qualities, but it works for me.

James.

Originally Posted by mpukas

Is there such a thing as a SR edge being too sharp?
....
In the kitchen knife world, many pro's find
.... snip...

I would invite you to reread the translation of "Honing Razors and Kamisori"
that JimR posted. http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post777909

If I got the right thread you will find a comment by the original author "Kousuke Iwasaki"
that when used with a correct angle a razor should stay sharp for 200 faces
with only stropping but with an incorrect angle maybe ten...

Hidden in this good little paper are some honing and stropping gems to ponder.

Yes an edge can be too fine/ fragile for the steel... yet with modern
hones and pasted finishing strops this should be uncommon.

So many great things have been said in these responses. Thanks so much - I really appreciate it!

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

if you loose your edge after one shave to the extent that you need rehoning, something is wrong. You don't have to send your razor out to be honed, but I do think it would be good if you could sit down with someone and get things sorted out person to person.

Yeah, something is not quite right. I wish there was someone experienced in my area that I could sit down with, Until then, all I have to go is youtbue vid's and what you guys post here.

Originally Posted by riooso

What kind of razor do you have? Quality of steel? You say you get a good shave then when you strop could you have issues with your stropping technique? When you are honing your razor you must have a bevel that is perfectly set. The bevel is the foundation on which everything is built upon. The symptoms that you are describing are typical of a razor that needs to have a bevel set. Boron will quickly put an edge on a razor by if you are just doing the very edge it will be short lived because there is not a good bevel holding up the edge.

I will admit that I have not had much experience stopping at 8K and expecting a razor to perform. I have always been one to go to 16K then pastes or whatever. For me, personally, the longer that I stayed on the rocks up the progression the more stable my edges became. I know that a lot of very experienced people will say it is not needed.....but it works for me.

I have a new basic Dovo 5/8 f/ SRD. I've only used 4k and 8k stones since it's new and I don't think it needs a 1k to set the bevel. I eventually plan to get a higher grit finishing stone, but for now 8k and pastes are all I have.

I agree - in my experiences w/ sharpening kitchen knives - that the edge f/ a stone is better than the edge f/ a loaded strop in terms of durability. I find when I use the stones then loaded strops, my edge is quite good. If after several shaves I hit the loaded strops for a few passes, the edge doesn't last and feels grabby and pulls on my beard,a nd I get a bit of razor burn.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It's referred to as over honed. It's quite uncommon, but it would happen a lot to me when I started messing with CrOx. Could also be an imperfection in the balsa flatness.

Basically, you are tearing away at the edge in some way at some point in your honing. It is not a big error, but more a slight problem, and an unusual one, on the learning curve.

The edge becomes brittle or too thin to support itself.

sometimes correctable by stropping.

That's an excellent point(s). I could be over honing. I prolly make too many passes on the loaded strops and the edge becomes too brittle. I think my stropping technique is getting better and better - on both my hanging strop f/ SRD and my custom made one w/ bridal double leather - 'cuz after a couple of bad shaves and some careful stropping on plain leather I can get the edge back to being pretty good again.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I don't think personally an edge can be too sharp, but I do think you can hone an edge past its physical capacity to maintain its structure. I'd personally consider an edge that is so fragile that it dulls quickly to be essentially overhoned. I think you may be meaning the same thing and we are just quibbling over definitions...

I'm never sure when I say this whether it helps or hinders, but I have always thought that the secret to good honing is knowing when to stop.

Yeah that a great point. That's a secret to many things in life - don't try to do too much. More is not always better.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

I would invite you to reread the translation of "Honing Razors and Kamisori"
that JimR posted. http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post777909

Yes an edge can be too fine/ fragile for the steel... yet with modern
hones and pasted finishing strops this should be uncommon.

Sweet! I'll check the link out when I get a second or two.

Thanks again all! Thes responses have really opened up some new things for me to consider. Cheers! mpp

since you have a 4/8k norton maybe you could try a pyramid as described here:
Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki

if done correctly it will give you a great edge off the 8k, this way you can even calibrate how the edge should feel when you are coming off the 8k even if you do not use pyramids before you go to higher grit stone.

I have Shapton GlassStones, not the Norton combo. Not matter though.

I haven't tried the pyramid method. Not really a fan, can't say why. But I'll give it a go so I can see the results for myself. Thanks! mpp

When I used to use the 4K/8K combo exclusively, I would sometimes come up with a harsh edge on some razors. The thing I always tried to do and still do with this format is to go back to the 8K with 3-5 no pressure X strokes followed by regular stropping and try to get the razor to where it will shave effortlessly. It may take a couple tries. Another tactic as mentioned that has worked well for me was to pyramid at 1 stroke no press on the 4K followed by 3 on the 8K and then another 1 stroke on the 4K followed by 5 on the 8K. I think the more you play around with this, the better your edges will start getting. When you are getting as close as you describe, sending them out is not the answer. Building on your successes is.

Keep us posted.