Printable View
So I did a search on this and the only thing that seemed to come up was the thread about "that guys" video so I figured I would ask the question.....
I get why you strop edge trailing but why is it that honing is done with a leading edge? As a newer straight shaver I haven't gotten to honing my own razors but thought it was important to know the why before I start.
Thanks!!
The easy answer is because it works better as supported by just about all of the living generation of razor honers and the past ones that went before us.
Beyond that you can support that behavior with theories about why abrasives leave a better edge on razors in particular when the edge leads as the abrasive cuts into the edge vs trailing the edge and why the edge is not as clean.
the mechanics of the abrasion is slightly different from what I have seen as explanation.
Wire edge is not easy to create with edge leading but it is easier to create with edge trailing.
It's interesting that you mention this. I firmly believe that the need to understand why things are done with straight razors is one of the big things that prevents people from actually learning how to do it. We have an assumption that yoU need to know the "why" in order to learn.
Straight razors are actually really simple.
If you back hone it doesn't work as well. Now, everyone spends time back-honing, questioning, more back-honing, posting, forward honing. That goes on for a long time. Then one day, a few years later, they slowly concede, particularly as you get better and better at honing. Nobody really knows why it works better, they surmise.
I can only imagine how hard it is for people to deal with x patterns, stropping deflection, over honing, etc. And because they don't understand it, and people can't effectively prove it, they remain skeptical.
Then you have the guys that spend weeks learning how to get a decent edge back-honing. I guess it makes it interesting for them .
My point though is that you have a lot of tasks to learn to complete correctly in order to get a good shave. Maybe 100 different parts to it, maybe only 20. Like learning to drive a car, it's simple, but full of tasks. Imagine someone asking, "but why do I need to put the key in the ignition?". "Why do I have to put my hands at 10 and 2 o'clock, why, why, why?"
I applaud you curiosity, I'm just pointing out that if you find yourself getting frustrated remember this post. I was able to make some big gains in skill when I let go of the need to be almost philosophical about the reasons for doing things. Later on, after you've learned, you'll find lots of wiggle room and variations to the rules.
It's forward honing to move the steel away from the edge and it's 10 and 2 because 11 and 1 doesn't sound as cool.
Just on a tangent. You know all those newb posts when people have rolled their edge by incorrect stropping & lifting the spine ? Imagine the damage if they did that on a hone.
You can postulate all sorts of theories but the bottom line is often about safety & repeatability. Results tho, can be achieved many ways. I may choose to do all my honing in figure 8's but it won't necessarily work for most people.
Seems to me that when honing edge trailing, the metal that is removed is pulled toward the cutting edge of the blade, right where you dont want it to be.
The problem is also in what grit range you are doing things :)
Believe it or not, many of us try experiments to push the envelope... Back in 2009 "Backhoning" was one of those experiments I tried, it started with the Shapton 30k after talking with Don from SRD who said he was getting good results by using a few backhoning strokes for a finish on that stone.. We had always used backhoning for overhoning corrections but finishing was something different.. So I experimented with the 30k and came up with the 3-2-1 finish on that hone, that seems to work very well for me, and a few other Shapton users that tried it..
( 3 edge leading, 2 spine leading, 1 edge leading) Now keep in mind I tried quite a few combinations before that worked best for me on the most razors..
Now if you have success with something, what do you do :shrug: myself I started pushing the same approach with other stones, tried all sorts of combo's with backhoning... Now, I didn't find any others that worked better for me then standard edge leading, and I found that no matter what combo I used, the edge was always smoothest by using edge leading on the last stroke(s)..
I also found that when you try it at a lower grit stone the edge gets rather uncomfortable to shave with.
Now, recently as you mentioned, many others have tried it, and so far I haven't seen anyone saying it works better..
I can tell you one thing for sure, the archives here, and on the old Yahoo site, have a ton of this info in there, and if you really are into chasing the edges there is some great reading....
The best advice is what Alan/afdavis gave you already, learn the standard way, get comfortable shaving edges from that, then when you start getting bored with how consistent you have become, start chasing the edges with experimenting...
Duh! First you add your name to it and claim it as a brand new honing method. Then you make a video and post it on the internet being sure to imply this is a better way to hone and, of course, those who disagree are simply close minded and they just haven't tried it (if they had it doesn't really count, or they're simply not good enough to get the results you're getting) :pQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Dang it Ivan! I was just going to do exactly this... and then you come along and ruin everything!
I disagree with about 90 percent of what you say. A person can be a mindless robot and get along in life. If I push this button X happens. I can agree that I don't need to know how a nuclear power plant works to be able to turn on my light switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
But as you stated straight razors are "relatively" simple. One person can know "everything" about them. :-] One of the things that attracts me and I am sure a lot of others are these reasons. I can make and use one of these things myself. I don't have to rely on King Gillette. If I want to, I can dig the metal or hone out of the ground myself.
If all I wanted was a smooth face and wasn't interested in why, I would buy a disposable Bic and move on with my life.
Tim
I don't think that's what Alan is saying. But may be that's because his post matches quite well with my own experience.
When I first decided to hone I had some sort of a mental picture of what I'm trying to accomplish, and how that happens. I was imagining this ideal model of a perfectly straight razor, perfectly flat hone, and perfectly even and uniform strokes that I no doubt will be able to perform. So I thought heal leading strokes along the hone would be way superior than x-pattern to achieving the goal of making the razor sharp (I actually did the calculation on how much more efficient they are), and even better - save the razor from developing uneven wear.
However I quickly realized that's not working very well and there are really good reasons why x-pattern works better. I now have a much better picture of what is happening during honing and is is consistent with what works better when you put a razor on the hone.
May be I'm still making it up and don't really understand what's going on, but one thing that's beyond dispute is that I can produce far superior edges following the traditional methods, such as edge leading x-pattern than going against them.
Back on the subject another piece of data is that I'm yet to see a significant number of people with significant honing experience who find that edge trailing strokes work better for them. I mean there's bound to be some, but even among the relative novices who tried it for the first time recently there was a lot of 'great experiment we're learning a lot', 'I bet it'll work great for newbies', yet everybody seems to have gotten back to the standard way of honing. I think everybody should be free to reinvent the wheel, and just accept that there will be plenty of 'I toldya so's in life. Some times it's a waste of time, other times it's learning a really important lesson.
Yeah, but then you stopped at honing. Why not go to forging/grinding, metallurgy, or for that matter smelting and may be mining...Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
It's easy to measure yourself against the regular bic shaving guy, why not measure against somebody like say Mike Blue ;)
I am planning to go to Mike"s in February to even get a bit of knowledge. That is why I put "everything" in quotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I am not trying to say that the tried and true methods of our ancestors are not the best. Just because they lived 100 years or more ago does not make them a bunch of idiots.
If I am trying to learn something, [and I am not unique] I want to know why/how to do something. If I do this.... what happens? To me this is very important. If i can copy masters I can get results. I will never become a master unless I know why I get those results.
I can do good without understanding why... But why?
Tim
What I'm saying is that if you really want to know 'why' you have to be studying quantum mechanics, or may be even string theory. And that's not necessary to enjoy shaving with a straight razor, just as being able to hone your razors, or 'understanding' the process isn't either.
And, of course there's a lot of made up plain wrong stuff from the old days, it's not all good. Or sometimes non-standard stuff can work really well for somebody (cf. Liam Finnegan's stroping on a rather loose strop).
Eventually you'll be content with some incomplete level of knowledge, and somebody else will be content with a different level of knowledge, some less than yours, some more than yours. For example you probably strop your razors, just like all of us do. Do you understand exactly what is happening to the edge? I'm very interested to learn if you do.
You are right. At some point I will be satisfied with a certain point of "incomplete" knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Maybe a better word would be "controllable" knowledge. If I do this... This happens... And I know why!
If I don't know why this happens and i am afraid to ask why I will never be incomplete.
Tim
This is actually how/where this question jumped in my head. Do I know 100% the how and why NO but I feel I have a much stronger grasp on the "science" behind it. And the answers that have been given so far make a lot of sense and I look forward to other opinions/answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Another thing to consider is the linkage between tasks. The over analytical mind might conclude at some point that back-honing works well, only to find years later that his stropping isn't working as well as he thought. If you want to analyze this out, and that is a perfectly noble hobby all to it self, keep in mind that there may be a relational link to all the steps. Forward honing, x patterns, stropping, and scything shaving strokes, may all have a relationship, that you have to consider.
My point was that learning how to straight shave involves many specific tasks that need to be accomplished correctly. I wouldn't recommend beginners getting too wrapped up in the analysis of each step, particularly if they haven't learned all the steps yet.
Ive taught many people how to hone, by teaching them how to strop. They remain stuck in some analytical paralysis that focuses on diagnosing what is wrong and less appreciation for the skills required. Honing requires great skill and practice, and less scientific discovery than most people appreciate.
Everyone is welcome to disagree with my points though.
No disagreement here. I think that the knowledge we can through learning gets to a point where it becomes a "feeling" for what is right, wrong and what to do about it. The sensations and feelings are all based on the knowledge we have gained but somehow transcend them. At that point, we are able to stop asking the "why" and "how" questions (although we could answer them) and just go about our business.
There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. But the cat still ends up skinned. Some are better than others, but still work.