Thread: Edge first.....?

So I did a search on this and the only thing that seemed to come up was the thread about "that guys" video so I figured I would ask the question.....

I get why you strop edge trailing but why is it that honing is done with a leading edge? As a newer straight shaver I haven't gotten to honing my own razors but thought it was important to know the why before I start.

Thanks!!

The easy answer is because it works better as supported by just about all of the living generation of razor honers and the past ones that went before us.
Beyond that you can support that behavior with theories about why abrasives leave a better edge on razors in particular when the edge leads as the abrasive cuts into the edge vs trailing the edge and why the edge is not as clean.

the mechanics of the abrasion is slightly different from what I have seen as explanation.
Wire edge is not easy to create with edge leading but it is easier to create with edge trailing.

It's interesting that you mention this. I firmly believe that the need to understand why things are done with straight razors is one of the big things that prevents people from actually learning how to do it. We have an assumption that yoU need to know the "why" in order to learn.

Straight razors are actually really simple.

If you back hone it doesn't work as well. Now, everyone spends time back-honing, questioning, more back-honing, posting, forward honing. That goes on for a long time. Then one day, a few years later, they slowly concede, particularly as you get better and better at honing. Nobody really knows why it works better, they surmise.

I can only imagine how hard it is for people to deal with x patterns, stropping deflection, over honing, etc. And because they don't understand it, and people can't effectively prove it, they remain skeptical.

Then you have the guys that spend weeks learning how to get a decent edge back-honing. I guess it makes it interesting for them .

My point though is that you have a lot of tasks to learn to complete correctly in order to get a good shave. Maybe 100 different parts to it, maybe only 20. Like learning to drive a car, it's simple, but full of tasks. Imagine someone asking, "but why do I need to put the key in the ignition?". "Why do I have to put my hands at 10 and 2 o'clock, why, why, why?"

I applaud you curiosity, I'm just pointing out that if you find yourself getting frustrated remember this post. I was able to make some big gains in skill when I let go of the need to be almost philosophical about the reasons for doing things. Later on, after you've learned, you'll find lots of wiggle room and variations to the rules.

It's forward honing to move the steel away from the edge and it's 10 and 2 because 11 and 1 doesn't sound as cool.

Just on a tangent. You know all those newb posts when people have rolled their edge by incorrect stropping & lifting the spine ? Imagine the damage if they did that on a hone.
You can postulate all sorts of theories but the bottom line is often about safety & repeatability. Results tho, can be achieved many ways. I may choose to do all my honing in figure 8's but it won't necessarily work for most people.

Seems to me that when honing edge trailing, the metal that is removed is pulled toward the cutting edge of the blade, right where you dont want it to be.

The problem is also in what grit range you are doing things

Believe it or not, many of us try experiments to push the envelope... Back in 2009 "Backhoning" was one of those experiments I tried, it started with the Shapton 30k after talking with Don from SRD who said he was getting good results by using a few backhoning strokes for a finish on that stone.. We had always used backhoning for overhoning corrections but finishing was something different.. So I experimented with the 30k and came up with the 3-2-1 finish on that hone, that seems to work very well for me, and a few other Shapton users that tried it..
( 3 edge leading, 2 spine leading, 1 edge leading) Now keep in mind I tried quite a few combinations before that worked best for me on the most razors..
Now if you have success with something, what do you do myself I started pushing the same approach with other stones, tried all sorts of combo's with backhoning... Now, I didn't find any others that worked better for me then standard edge leading, and I found that no matter what combo I used, the edge was always smoothest by using edge leading on the last stroke(s)..
I also found that when you try it at a lower grit stone the edge gets rather uncomfortable to shave with.
Now, recently as you mentioned, many others have tried it, and so far I haven't seen anyone saying it works better..
I can tell you one thing for sure, the archives here, and on the old Yahoo site, have a ton of this info in there, and if you really are into chasing the edges there is some great reading....

The best advice is what Alan/afdavis gave you already, learn the standard way, get comfortable shaving edges from that, then when you start getting bored with how consistent you have become, start chasing the edges with experimenting...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now if you have success with something, what do you do

Duh! First you add your name to it and claim it as a brand new honing method. Then you make a video and post it on the internet being sure to imply this is a better way to hone and, of course, those who disagree are simply close minded and they just haven't tried it (if they had it doesn't really count, or they're simply not good enough to get the results you're getting)

Originally Posted by gugi

Duh! First you add your name to it and claim it as a brand new honing method. Then you make a video and post it on the internet being sure to imply this is a better way to hone and, of course, those who disagree are simply close minded and they just haven't tried it (if they had it doesn't really count, or they're simply not good enough to get the results you're getting)

Dang it Ivan! I was just going to do exactly this... and then you come along and ruin everything!

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It's interesting that you mention this. I firmly believe that the need to understand why things are done with straight razors is one of the big things that prevents people from actually learning how to do it. We have an assumption that yoU need to know the "why" in order to learn.

Straight razors are actually really simple.

If you back hone it doesn't work as well. Now, everyone spends time back-honing, questioning, more back-honing, posting, forward honing. That goes on for a long time. Then one day, a few years later, they slowly concede, particularly as you get better and better at honing. Nobody really knows why it works better, they surmise.

I can only imagine how hard it is for people to deal with x patterns, stropping deflection, over honing, etc. And because they don't understand it, and people can't effectively prove it, they remain skeptical.

Then you have the guys that spend weeks learning how to get a decent edge back-honing. I guess it makes it interesting for them .

My point though is that you have a lot of tasks to learn to complete correctly in order to get a good shave. Maybe 100 different parts to it, maybe only 20. Like learning to drive a car, it's simple, but full of tasks. Imagine someone asking, "but why do I need to put the key in the ignition?". "Why do I have to put my hands at 10 and 2 o'clock, why, why, why?"

I applaud you curiosity, I'm just pointing out that if you find yourself getting frustrated remember this post. I was able to make some big gains in skill when I let go of the need to be almost philosophical about the reasons for doing things. Later on, after you've learned, you'll find lots of wiggle room and variations to the rules.

It's forward honing to move the steel away from the edge and it's 10 and 2 because 11 and 1 doesn't sound as cool.

I disagree with about 90 percent of what you say. A person can be a mindless robot and get along in life. If I push this button X happens. I can agree that I don't need to know how a nuclear power plant works to be able to turn on my light switch.

But as you stated straight razors are "relatively" simple. One person can know "everything" about them. :-] One of the things that attracts me and I am sure a lot of others are these reasons. I can make and use one of these things myself. I don't have to rely on King Gillette. If I want to, I can dig the metal or hone out of the ground myself.

If all I wanted was a smooth face and wasn't interested in why, I would buy a disposable Bic and move on with my life.

Tim