Thread: Edge first.....?

I don't think that's what Alan is saying. But may be that's because his post matches quite well with my own experience.

When I first decided to hone I had some sort of a mental picture of what I'm trying to accomplish, and how that happens. I was imagining this ideal model of a perfectly straight razor, perfectly flat hone, and perfectly even and uniform strokes that I no doubt will be able to perform. So I thought heal leading strokes along the hone would be way superior than x-pattern to achieving the goal of making the razor sharp (I actually did the calculation on how much more efficient they are), and even better - save the razor from developing uneven wear.

However I quickly realized that's not working very well and there are really good reasons why x-pattern works better. I now have a much better picture of what is happening during honing and is is consistent with what works better when you put a razor on the hone.
May be I'm still making it up and don't really understand what's going on, but one thing that's beyond dispute is that I can produce far superior edges following the traditional methods, such as edge leading x-pattern than going against them.

Back on the subject another piece of data is that I'm yet to see a significant number of people with significant honing experience who find that edge trailing strokes work better for them. I mean there's bound to be some, but even among the relative novices who tried it for the first time recently there was a lot of 'great experiment we're learning a lot', 'I bet it'll work great for newbies', yet everybody seems to have gotten back to the standard way of honing. I think everybody should be free to reinvent the wheel, and just accept that there will be plenty of 'I toldya so's in life. Some times it's a waste of time, other times it's learning a really important lesson.

Originally Posted by 32t

If all I wanted was a smooth face and wasn't interested in why, I would buy a disposable Bic and move on with my life.

Yeah, but then you stopped at honing. Why not go to forging/grinding, metallurgy, or for that matter smelting and may be mining...
It's easy to measure yourself against the regular bic shaving guy, why not measure against somebody like say Mike Blue

Originally Posted by gugi

Yeah, but then you stopped at honing. Why not go to forging/grinding, metallurgy, or for that matter smelting and may be mining...
It's easy to measure yourself against the regular bic shaving guy, why not measure against somebody like say Mike Blue

I am planning to go to Mike"s in February to even get a bit of knowledge. That is why I put "everything" in quotes.

I am not trying to say that the tried and true methods of our ancestors are not the best. Just because they lived 100 years or more ago does not make them a bunch of idiots.

If I am trying to learn something, [and I am not unique] I want to know why/how to do something. If I do this.... what happens? To me this is very important. If i can copy masters I can get results. I will never become a master unless I know why I get those results.

I can do good without understanding why... But why?

Tim

What I'm saying is that if you really want to know 'why' you have to be studying quantum mechanics, or may be even string theory. And that's not necessary to enjoy shaving with a straight razor, just as being able to hone your razors, or 'understanding' the process isn't either.

And, of course there's a lot of made up plain wrong stuff from the old days, it's not all good. Or sometimes non-standard stuff can work really well for somebody (cf. Liam Finnegan's stroping on a rather loose strop).

Eventually you'll be content with some incomplete level of knowledge, and somebody else will be content with a different level of knowledge, some less than yours, some more than yours. For example you probably strop your razors, just like all of us do. Do you understand exactly what is happening to the edge? I'm very interested to learn if you do.

Originally Posted by gugi

What I'm saying is that if you really want to know 'why' you have to be studying quantum mechanics, or may be even string theory. And that's not necessary to enjoy shaving with a straight razor, just as being able to hone your razors, or 'understanding' the process isn't either.

And, of course there's a lot of made up plain wrong stuff from the old days, it's not all good. Or sometimes non-standard stuff can work really well for somebody (cf. Liam Finnegan's stroping on a rather loose strop).

Eventually you'll be content with some incomplete level of knowledge, and somebody else will be content with a different level of knowledge, some less than yours, some more than yours. For example you probably strop your razors, just like all of us do. Do you understand exactly what is happening to the edge? I'm very interested to learn if you do.

You are right. At some point I will be satisfied with a certain point of "incomplete" knowledge.

Maybe a better word would be "controllable" knowledge. If I do this... This happens... And I know why!

If I don't know why this happens and i am afraid to ask why I will never be incomplete.

Tim

Originally Posted by gugi

For example you probably strop your razors, just like all of us do. Do you understand exactly what is happening to the edge? I'm very interested to learn if you do.

This is actually how/where this question jumped in my head. Do I know 100% the how and why NO but I feel I have a much stronger grasp on the "science" behind it. And the answers that have been given so far make a lot of sense and I look forward to other opinions/answers.

Another thing to consider is the linkage between tasks. The over analytical mind might conclude at some point that back-honing works well, only to find years later that his stropping isn't working as well as he thought. If you want to analyze this out, and that is a perfectly noble hobby all to it self, keep in mind that there may be a relational link to all the steps. Forward honing, x patterns, stropping, and scything shaving strokes, may all have a relationship, that you have to consider.

My point was that learning how to straight shave involves many specific tasks that need to be accomplished correctly. I wouldn't recommend beginners getting too wrapped up in the analysis of each step, particularly if they haven't learned all the steps yet.

Ive taught many people how to hone, by teaching them how to strop. They remain stuck in some analytical paralysis that focuses on diagnosing what is wrong and less appreciation for the skills required. Honing requires great skill and practice, and less scientific discovery than most people appreciate.

Everyone is welcome to disagree with my points though.

No disagreement here. I think that the knowledge we can through learning gets to a point where it becomes a "feeling" for what is right, wrong and what to do about it. The sensations and feelings are all based on the knowledge we have gained but somehow transcend them. At that point, we are able to stop asking the "why" and "how" questions (although we could answer them) and just go about our business.

There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. But the cat still ends up skinned. Some are better than others, but still work.