I contacted the quarry in Vielsalm and they referred me to a dealer not far from here so I'm going to inform about Belgian blue and the yellow/white coticules, is there anything in particular I should look or ask for?
Printable View
I contacted the quarry in Vielsalm and they referred me to a dealer not far from here so I'm going to inform about Belgian blue and the yellow/white coticules, is there anything in particular I should look or ask for?
Forget about the blue. I don't even use it. What you should really be looking at is yellow as that one has the fine enough grain for finishing. Just wait for someone who knows more about variations in quality to respond to this post before contacting the dealer.
could someone advise me what pricepoint would be too much? I mean at what price could I get something (artificial ?) of better quality? :)
If it's these guys: http://www.shaving-and-razor-shop.co...jpstenen-n.htm, they organize courses in shaving and honing. They know what they're doing I presume.Quote:
Originally Posted by harold
The blue coticule is about 6K according to people on the forum who know, the yellow is 10-12 K I believe.
I recently bought a Thuringer from Manufactum in Germany, 18 euros, quite pleased with it. Even honed my Zwilling Friodur with it effortlessly!
Succes ermee!
The way it was described in old posts I searched out the yellow is 8k, but leaves a finish equivlant to 12k.
The 200x50 one (presumed mm) is 8 inches by 2 inches. There are ~25 mm in an inch or ~100 in 4 inches.
The problem is that the term yellow coticule refers to a type of stone that has certain physical characteristics and the actual hardness of the stone and its crystaline make-up ( which is what provides the cutting action) will differ from location to location and even one part of a quarry to another. You really need to have confidence in the people that are selling the stone since you can't test each piece so giving you advice about the stone is almost impossible. You would have to examine it under a high powered microscope, do hardness tests, etc to determine what it will do to your razors. In all probability any coticule you get will range from a very fine stone to a coarse stone, maybe too coarse. Clear as mud?
Thebig spender is right on the money. I had good new stones and I had bad ones. The bad ones cut much more coarsly than the good ones, maybe in line with the 4K side of a Norton. It is important to buy from a dealer who will allow you to return the stone if it is not acceptable as I always did. The larger prolem though is for the beginner and in recognizing the results of a bad vs. good stone. One has to differentiate between lack of skill and a stone that will simply not perform as expected. In one case I had a customer who was unsure of his skill and we sent the stone to a mutual friend for testing. The stone was a poor one and I took it back.
Tony
First off, I really like natural stones and the edge they give on the razor.
Second, what has been said here is very accurate. Determining the quality of a stone is difficult for a new person.
Third, the best advice is to be sure you can return the stone.
Now... The blue stone, when used with a slurry, is very good as a medium stone. It is slower than a Norton 4000 but I like the resulting edge better.
The light colored partof the stone needs to be yellow/tan/cream in color with no speckels or lines. Not an off color gray or shades of blue showing thru or anything else. Just a plain yellow/tan/cream color. What you will not be able to see is the size and density of the garnets which actually do the cutting. For that you need a microscope AND! a top grade stone to compare it to. Most people do not have that available to them. The only thing you can do is get the best that they have to offer.
Also, be sure to get a slurry stone for you Belgian stone. Thats how they work best.BTW, a slurry stone is also called a rubbing stone.
Kees: it seem to be the same guys although I don't know the relationship between the store and that website of coure. But it's 'de koordenwinkel' alright and they use stones from the quarry in Vielsalm. If they give courses, that would be sweet. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Check this page for their courses: http://www.shaving-and-razor-shop.com/NL/Cursus.htm
Good luck!
hmmm, 85€ is quite an amount of money, probably a lot more than I'll be able to/want to spend. :o
I might take up their honing course though, 15€ is a very reasonable price for learning how to hone properly.
Harold
I show you if you want how you shaving you but....i live in Oost-Vlaanderen. Send me a private message becuase my English is not so good :o
Randy, when you use the blue and yellow together, do you use a pyramid?
Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
You can if you want to but there is no rule that says you have to. That being said there are people who do use a pyramid utilizing the Norton 8000 and Belgian Coticule or Escher and it works well.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
Hope this helps,:)
So you just hone on the blue til it passes the thumbnail test, then go to the yellow through the HHT?
It can be done but it is slow. Ask Hoekmanx(Theo)!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
The thumnail test would tell you if all the nicks are gone, and if the bevel is formed uniformily along the entire length of the edge.
Once the razor passes the thumbnail test I would stay on it for a while longer, say 25-50 laps before I went on to the yellow stone. Be sure to use a slurry with each side. If you expect to have a shaving edge after 25-50 laps on the yellow then your dreaming. It is not a fast cutting hone for either side. But the resulting edge is very nice. The edge can be further refined by using a paddle strop pasted with 0.5 micron paste. I prefer chrome oxide over diamond.
How important is it that it be free of lines or speckles? I just bought one from Howard that's a nice yellow, is supersmooth, but it has a grain to the eye alright. Looks like a hunk of Italian parmesan, faint white 'scales' on buttery yellow.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I think Tony somewhere said this kind of thing wasn't supposed to be a reliable indication of grit or quality.
Do you need a rubbing stone? Can you just wet the stone and start honing and work up the slurry?Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Dylan,
I did post something to that effect a while back. I had stones which met all the criteria but were very coarse cutting and others similar to what you described that performed very well. I had even sent these stones to several of our resident experts to try and they had similar results. The model of a perfect stone turned out to be a dud, the one of questionable appearance was a gem. You pays your money and you takes your chances as they say.
Always be sure you can return any expensive hone if it is not adequate...BUT, be sure you have the experience to know if you got a good one or bad one before that time period runs out.
Tony
How come you like the chrome oxide over the diamond? I am curious bout this:)Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
diamonds are overrated:Quote:
Originally Posted by 72miura
http://www.eyeonbooks.com/ibp.php?ISBN=0312339690
press play. 10 min of interesting listening
The diamonds are harder and faster cutting but some people feel it leaves a more scratchy, harsher edge. the chrome oxide seems to leave smoother micro-serrations than the diamond. I have heard the same thing with stones....Nortons leaving sharp edges stiations, Arkansas stones leaving rounded edge ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by 72miura
Tony
We already have the capability of producing actual jewlery-quality diamonds industrially. Same element (carbon), same crystalline structure, totally identical. As I have family connections in the mining industry, I'm well aware of what what kind of a mafia runs the biz and their dirty tricks. Ofcourse that is not uncommon. The Nikes that you are wearing and the toys that your kids are playing with were made by children in sweatshops. Too many people would do anything to make a quick buck and in a lot of cases it means exploiting the poor and vulnerable.
For me the chrome oxide edge just feels better on my skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by 72miura
Rubbing stones to work up a slurry are simply a fast method of generating a slurry. It is possible to work up a slurry using just water and the razor but slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
To test the quality of the hone that you have just take a shave ready razor, hones it on the stone and then shave test the razor. Repeat the honing several times if necessary to obtain a definite answer.
I will not use a Belgian hone that is not absolutely uniform in color.
Ya! What he said!:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
I went to The Perfect Edge last week. I don't think Howard had a single coticule that was uniform in color. Is this a vintage/modern stone thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I've tried and tried and I see no difference in the results in a comparable grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by 72miura
The fact that you can get diamond in so much finer grits must also mean something. IMO it's physically impossible for a .25 diamond not to produce a finer edge than a .5 chromium (unless the grain of the steel introduces a limitation on fineness).
If you consider the dimensions, it would also be quite incredible that you could feel a difference because of the shape of the scratch. A .5 micron paste puts about 150 scratches across a distance equal to the thickness of a hair!
I know that it sounds illogical when viewed from the perspective of scratch line size. They are so fine!
But... maybe it is the medications I take that make my skin more sensitive?:shrug: For whatever reason I can tell the difference and prefer the 0.5 micron size and chrome oxide over diamond.
Just me being finicky,:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
I think it reflects a lack of quality control on the part of the quarry or their perspective on what is important. Frankly, I do not believe that straight razor users are a noticeable part of their customer base.
The imperfections in the stones would probably be of no consequence to someone sharpening a knife or a plane blade so the quarry may not regard this as a defect
Just muttering out loud,:hmmm:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
That's something we have in common. I alwyas thought I had sensitive skin, but then I found I had a skin condition, and I now use medication.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
If you look back a few posts, I mention the GlassStones. I did find a difference in smoothness between the 16K and coticule/Escher. The grit difference is not that great there. So, you may have something there. Or maybe we're both too finicky.
Joe,
I based my comments on the scratch fineness not only from conversations with Randy but also my Rabbi friend. He is very particular about the smoothness of the edge itself becauase of Kosher rules and said he cannot use diamonds becuase in theory at least it leaves minute little nicks (scratches) which are not allowed. He seemed to favor the more rounded grits. He also was one that found great variation in Belgians. The quarry does offer what it calls "Kosher grade" stones but at even higher prices.
My Rabbi friend was very impressed with the new Thuringen samples (shamless plug here) I sent him for testing. I am placing an order this week for 2 x 8 and 3 x 10 stones from Thuringen Germany. These are basically the same composition as the early Escher hones.
Tony
I suspect that what your friend says may be somewhat of a legend. A .5 micron makes a much smoother edge in terms of the size of the microserrations. There are more than 4 diamond teeth per coticule tooth. That would show up under high magnification. We know that every edge has such teeth, so there's really no such thing as a smooth edge. It's like comparing a saw with coarse teeth to one with fine teeth. Neither is really smooth, but the one with the fine teeth is closer to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
We both have a scientific background, so you can understand why I insist on things making sense scientifically.
I'm looking forward to those Thuringen stones. I think I'd like a 3" one. That's a nice length, too. It should make short work of any honing job.
Joe,
The science thing does complicate many things. I used to be able to just take things at fae value but now always need to see proof. I think what his point was that one "may" leave rounded, vs. sharp egded striations. I did say in theory though as his rules are based on tradition. I do know he probably has the largest collection of stones and hones seen anywhere as his role is in teaching other Rabbis how to prepare their knives.
The order for Thuringens has been placed with a 10 day estimated delivery. I'll keep you posted.
Tony
I can totally see where the .5 Chromium Oxide paste may give smoother serrations equating to a "smoother" feel to the shaver, but I think that main variable there is the acutal shaver and his skin and the feeling between the blade and the skin.
I will have to try this out though, see what I like better.
I wonder if the way Randy does his paste sharpening up to the .25m diamond and then "toning it down" as he calls it with the .5m chrome oxide doesn't acutally serve to dull the blade from the .25m diamond edge but just polishes it with the .5 chrome oxide paste, smoothing out the serrations to create a super sharp but super smooth edge.
We should all donate some money to get some time on an electron scanning microcope and check this stuff out:) I have one at my school I could prolly buy some time on.
For me, it's not so much a need to see proof as to understand why something happens. Two things bother me the most: when something goes against logic; and when something goes against fundamental science. When that happens I usually question the person and explain the fundamental principal involved, just to make sure I understand what the person is saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by 72miura
I think the real problem is the use of language. To me a rough edge is the opposite of a smooth edge, and I can see that under a microscope. But what does it mean when something feels rough? If it's the way a rough edge feels, then the edge done with a finer grit can't be rougher. That's my interpretation. If t's the way the cut feels, the sharper edge will always cut more easily and feel smoother. So, I basically don't understand what someone means when they say a sharper edge cut s rougher.
I wish I had access to one of those microscopes. Do you actually have to pay to use it? How much?
Before you use the microscope you should look at how Prof. Verhoeven did his experiments with that kind of microscope. www.mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www.mse.iastate.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf
Joe,
First, thanks for the challenges, it makes exploring topics like this fun.
In the case of my friend he is looking at this from a different persepective that we are. For you and I, it is the fundamental point of more scratch lines per inch equals a finer or smoother edge.........more and smaller to us equals an edge closer to being perfectly smooth and free of scratches altogether. The theoretical "perfect edge". For him it is the difference in the shape of the scratches, not the number. To him (if I understand correctly) the diamonds leave sharp edged scratches, no matter how many or how fine is not the point. Each scratch is basically a very, very small nick. Kosher laws do not allow any nicks in the knifes edge no matter the size.
For Randy (I'm guessing here) it is simply the empirical approach......how it feels on his face.
I am always caught in between. I usually go with the gut feeling approach of what seems to work best.......BUT, really need to understand why in order to feel comfortable enough to defend, or refute it.
There are lots of other factors at work that may skew the facts. Maybe the 0.25 edge is so sharp it catches more on the skin making it feel rougher, maybe the ultra sharp edge does not strop as well for some people with the technique they use now, maybe it rolls so quickly it does not stay sharp. All of these factors could go against what the science of sharp tells us.
I do very much enjoy these types of discussions....I deal with science and detective work everyday in my "real" job and enjoy finding out why things happen. I made my original post about rounded vs. sharp simply to throw out the comments I have heard other places.
Me? I use the 0.25 pastes and sharp cutting garnet based stones because I KNOW they are sharper <g>
Tony
Ah! now I get it. It's whether something is philosohphically a sharp or smooth groove, not whether the blade actually exhibits nicks. At some time, the need for an edge not to be nicked may have been associated with cleanliness or the least amount of pain to the animal. Like many things in religion, it seems that the symbology may have taken on more importance than the original purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
I was thinking this myself, but I didn't dare raise it because it takes us in an entirely different direction on what constitutes roughness.Quote:
Maybe the 0.25 edge is so sharp it catches more on the skin.
Me too. Understanding the way things work is essential for me, and I'm used to drawing that information out of experts and presenting it in an understandable form.Quote:
I do very much enjoy these types of discussions....I deal with science and detective work everyday in my "real" job and enjoy finding out why things happen.
<<< Ah! now I get it. It's whether something is philosohphically a sharp or smooth groove, not whether the blade actually exhibits nicks. At some time, the need for an edge not to be nicked may have been associated with cleanliness or the least amount of pain to the animal. Like many things in religion, it seems that the symbology may have taken on more importance than the original purpose. >>>
Exactly! That covers his reasons...........now Randy may be another case which could touch on how it feels against the skin.
Tony
In Arthur Boon's "personal observations" he says that Dovo hones its razors "on a very fine Belgian Old Rock and succesively on a even finer one, called Escher waterstone."
Do people on this forum agree that the escher is finer and more of a finisher than the coticule?
Tony, would that also be true of your Thuringens?