New AOS Razor

I'm still new to honing, and i gave up on my NOS that i got on ebay and antique stores. I ended up sending it to a honemiester on this forum. I got a completely dulled razor to shave hair off my arms and legs, but could not get it t comfortably shave atg with my norton 220/1k 4k/8k set up. All the razors came back to me incredibly sharp and gave amazing shaves.

For xmas i got two new razors, both dovos one from AOS the other from classic shaving. They both gave me great WTG and XTG shaves, but i dared NOT go ATG. Part of my gifts was also a naniwa 12k. so here comes my question. Knowing that i failed to shine a bevel past just shaving hairs on my leg, do you think i should attempt to polish a bevel set from Dovo factory. beyond that is a dovo factory bevel worth keeping?

I feel like after all i have done with straights i might be capable of polishing a perfectly set bevel on a completely straight blade. my stropping has kept a few razors shave ready sharp (and ATG worthy) for almost 12 months. Granted i only shave about 3X a week, i still think it is an achievement.

So if any any one with experience honing, can please answer the following two questions with as much detail as possible i would appreciate it greatly:

Is a dovo factory bevel worth keeping, and polishing or should it be reset?
What stone should i start out on, and is a pyramid too invasive for a dovo factory set bevel?

Last question:

I feel bad taking a new blade, and practicing by shaving metal/life expectancy off of it. Having the skills to strop, a blade into almost 12 months of life should i be able to do it?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

:confused:

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If you had posted in the more appropriate Honing section instead of in Hones, you'd have gotten responses faster.


My experience with the factory edges from dovo is that they have microchips and need more work than naniwa 12.
IIRC on the last one I fixed I used norton 4k with slurry for faster cutting, normally I'd start with the 1k as it's much more efficient.

my apologies. I did not look thoroughly enough.

Back to 1k, because of microchips not to reset a bevel? How many strokes on the 1k? and would a pyramid with the 4k/8k be ok? followed by how many strokes on the 12k?

I wouldn't automatically assume a certain brand of razor has bad bevels and you have to reset them. You need to look at it and make that decision for yourself. If you don't like the way it looks and think you can do a better job then do it. Also if the razor is doing it's job why reset the bevel. Why look for trouble?

I haven't had any recent Dovo's the last time I bought a new one was a few years ago and I thought the edges were in good shape. They needed honing, some needed bevel work but I never saw microchips on any.

I think the same about my dovo's. i have a prima klang that shaves fine, i just whipped it on my coticule. I would shave with factory edge . if its not qite how you like?, just try 10 laps on your 12k naniwa. I never had microchips. you could check the edge with a 30k loop

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I wouldn't automatically assume a certain brand of razor has bad bevels and you have to reset them. You need to look at it and make that decision for yourself. If you don't like the way it looks and think you can do a better job then do it. Also if the razor is doing it's job why reset the bevel. Why look for trouble?
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+1. Evaluate the edge with a loupe (or microscope) before starting to hone it.

If you don't have either tool, start with 10 or 20 light laps on your finest stone, and test the result. If it's no good, drop to the next-finest stone (or use more pressure). And so on.

If you had a pasted strop, I'd suggest starting with that.

You have a problem to deal with:

. . . You don't have _proven_ honing skills.

So do as little damage as possible -- which means using the finest stone that you have.

Charles

Yeah, the 4 out of 4 dovos with a factory edge I've honed in the last several months all needed bevel work. Shavingwise they were what I consider barely shaving, though I'm sure many new people simply struggle through with that and end up either suffering, giving up, or finding a way to get a proper edge. But that's a pretty small sample, somebody like Lynn who hones a ton of them all the time would know best what state they typically come in, though there will always be variations.

The problem with doing these things over the internet is that it's almost impossible to evaluate the edge of somebody's razor. Best course of action always is to find somebody local who's good at it and who's willing to help.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I wouldn't automatically assume a certain brand of razor has bad bevels and you have to reset them. You need to look at it and make that decision for yourself. If you don't like the way it looks and think you can do a better job then do it. Also if the razor is doing it's job why reset the bevel. Why look for trouble?

I haven't had any recent Dovo's the last time I bought a new one was a few years ago and I thought the edges were in good shape. They needed honing, some needed bevel work but I never saw microchips on any.

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at the moment i do not own an optical device. I do not like buying cheap items because i find they cost more (aggravation/money) in the end than what i saved. I have seen recommendations for radio shack items, and other inexpensive items so that i can see what is going on with my edge. At this point all i have are my eyes. The edge looks fine, even through out and on par with the spine. it shaves really well WTG and XTG, but def. (a big definitely) not ATG. My bear is not dense, but it is tough so the fact that it is very comfortable wtg and xtg, made me believe bevel was good.

would i see imperfections with my eyes?

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I think the same about my dovo's. i have a prima klang that shaves fine, i just whipped it on my coticule. I would shave with factory edge . if its not qite how you like?, just try 10 laps on your 12k naniwa. I never had microchips. you could check the edge with a 30k loop

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i like wtg, not atg. and funny thing about loops, it seems none are actually 30k. the ones that are, only differ in price from an OK microscope by 10-20 bucks. only thing that bothers me is. I know not EVERYONE hones with an optical device. why me? i'm a bare bones type of guy. so i really would like to hone with only hands and stones.

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

+1. Evaluate the edge with a loupe (or microscope) before starting to hone it.

If you don't have either tool, start with 10 or 20 light laps on your finest stone, and test the result. If it's no good, drop to the next-finest stone (or use more pressure). And so on.

If you had a pasted strop, I'd suggest starting with that.

You have a problem to deal with:

. . . You don't have _proven_ honing skills.

So do as little damage as possible -- which means using the finest stone that you have.

Charles

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excellent advice. I'm going to try 20 laps on 12k tonight, hopefully thats where i can stop. +1 on honing skills. i failed on a wedge twice. i think the reason was i used tape to set bevel because i couldnt get the thing to cut hair off the 1k. Once i got an even bevel and shaved hair i took the tape off and went to polishing. from what i have read that means i polished the top of the bevel not the edge. Correct?

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Originally Posted by gugi

Yeah, the 4 out of 4 dovos with a factory edge I've honed in the last several months all needed bevel work. Shavingwise they were what I consider barely shaving, though I'm sure many new people simply struggle through with that and end up either suffering, giving up, or finding a way to get a proper edge. But that's a pretty small sample, somebody like Lynn who hones a ton of them all the time would know best what state they typically come in, though there will always be variations.

The problem with doing these things over the internet is that it's almost impossible to evaluate the edge of somebody's razor. Best course of action always is to find somebody local who's good at it and who's willing to help.

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a daunting task from what i have found.

You do need to evaluate the edge first. I recently purchased some Factory Dovo's. The one I opened was surprisingly ok. All it needed was a go on my Escher. That's it. No bevel work. I always try to do the least amount of work possible to spare wear, so if the bevel is ok, and it's amost there, I'll just grab a finisher, then maybe 10 lapps on .50 Diamond spray on felt, and I'm good to go. Of course, since these blades are done by hand at Solingen, there are differences from blade to blade, Evaluation is a must, YMMV. Here's a vid from youtube on how Dovo's are made...Making DOVO Straight Razors - YouTube

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Originally Posted by zib

You do need to evaluate the edge first. I recently purchased some Factory Dovo's. The one I opened was surprisingly ok. All it needed was a go on my Escher. That's it. No bevel work. I always try to do the least amount of work possible to spare wear, so if the bevel is ok, and it's amost there, I'll just grab a finisher, then maybe 10 lapps on .50 Diamond spray on felt, and I'm good to go. Of course, since these blades are done by hand at Solingen, there are differences from blade to blade, Evaluation is a must, YMMV. Here's a vid from youtube on how Dovo's are made...Making DOVO Straight Razors - YouTube

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a 12k is no escher. will it do the job? also. one of the dovos i got is a stainless steel blade. I'm i to do double laps for it? or go one step further 8k?

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

a 12k is no escher. will it do the job? also. one of the dovos i got is a stainless steel blade. I'm i to do double laps for it? or go one step further 8k?

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We don't know. Too bad you can't see because you refuse to use magnification. You'll have to send it out to someone else, someone who cheats with optics!

BTW, what do you use to keep your hones flat?

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Originally Posted by AxelH

We don't know. Too bad you can't see because you refuse to use magnification. You'll have to send it out to someone else, someone who cheats with optics!

BTW, what do you use to keep your hones flat?

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i meant not to offend anyone. It is my opinion. I will more than likely have to go to a microscope, because like i have mentioned i failed twice. i'm clearly too novice to know better so please..... don't take my words to seriously.

i have a dmt, which has some imperfection somewhere because it made visible scratches on my stones. I now lap them with wet/dry 3m sand paper on my counter top. works very well for me, and i will continue it.

The dmt made the scratches on the first shot so it was not me.

again. i meant no harm. i'm stupid in the subject. i didn't to offend or be snub. please keep it constructive.

thanks.

New DMT's usually need broken in before using it to lap stones. Take a piece of metal and give it a good once(or twice) over to knock down the bits of diamond sticking out on the hone.

Don't worry about it, jp1munoz. And it's very constructive! Theseus has already come to the rescue. Something about that frog avatar... I'm not quite conscious of why, but for some reason I'm compelled to do what he says...

Is it a DMT coarse (325) grit?

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Originally Posted by Theseus

New DMT's usually need broken in before using it to lap stones. Take a piece of metal and give it a good once(or twice) over to knock down the bits of diamond sticking out on the hone.

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i didnt think or try that. from what i read they seemed so frail, and as if the life was very short. Figured just sand paper was cheap enough, and easy enough to access. I'm happy with it still.

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at the moment i do not own an optical device. I do not like buying cheap items because i find they cost more (aggravation/money) in the end than what i saved. I have seen recommendations for radio shack items, and other inexpensive items so that i can see what is going on with my edge.

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As a "medium-cost" compromise:

. . . Find a jeweler's supply store, and get a "10x triplet diamond loupe".

Like these:

Loupes | Magnifiers | Watch Maker’s Loupes | Head Magnifiers

They're pretty well free of color fringing, and the field is pretty flat. The Bausch & Lomb 10x is plenty good enough, and probably so is the NJS-branded loupe. [My own loupe is unbranded, bought from a local guy who teaches gemology.]

It's not as good as a microscope, but you get a good sense of what the edge is like. If there's enough trouble to require a bevel reset, you'll see it.

Charles

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excellent advice. I'm going to try 20 laps on 12k tonight, hopefully thats where i can stop. +1 on honing skills. i failed on a wedge twice. i think the reason was i used tape to set bevel because i couldnt get the thing to cut hair off the 1k. Once i got an even bevel and shaved hair i took the tape off and went to polishing. from what i have read that means i polished the top of the bevel not the edge. Correct?

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Yup. A proper "compound bevel" requires _more_ layers of tape as you increase grit number.

Charles

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

As a "medium-cost" compromise:

. . . Find a jeweler's supply store, and get a "10x triplet diamond loupe".

Like these:

Loupes | Magnifiers | Watch Maker’s Loupes | Head Magnifiers

They're pretty well free of color fringing, and the field is pretty flat. The Bausch & Lomb 10x is plenty good enough, and probably so is the NJS-branded loupe. [My own loupe is unbranded, bought from a local guy who teaches gemology.]

It's not as good as a microscope, but you get a good sense of what the edge is like. If there's enough trouble to require a bevel reset, you'll see it.

Charles

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i just ordered this:

http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-20x-60...4&sr=8-2-fkmr1

figured five razors getting honed would amount to it. so why not buy learn and be self sufficient.

i can still cancel the purchase so let me know what you think.

FWIW (I' not a microscope maven) --

You wrote:

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. . . I do not like buying cheap items because i find they cost more (aggravation/money) in the end than what i saved. . .

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I don't know how good the optics (and alignment) are, on the microscope you ordered. You'll find out quickly enough.

If there's color fringing, or the field isn't flat (edges focus differently than the center of the field), can you return it?

Charles

PS -- I did a quick look for alternative stereo microscopes, and found things like this:

GreatScopes Microscopes: The Achiever Stereo Microscope

for appreciably more money.

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

FWIW (I' not a microscope maven) --

You wrote:



I don't know how good the optics (and alignment) are, on the microscope you ordered. You'll find out quickly enough.

If there's color fringing, or the field isn't flat (edges focus differently than the center of the field), can you return it?

Charles

PS -- I did a quick look for alternative stereo microscopes, and found things like this:

GreatScopes Microscopes: The Achiever Stereo Microscope

for appreciably more money.

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i purchased it because i've read alot about stereo microscopes giving more info than a standard one. I saw it on a post, don't remember if it was a recommendation or just a "here ya go found this". In any case. i know they get much much more expensive than that. i even considered just using my dslr. i figured this would do since i seriously want to learn.

i ordered from amazon, and they are really good with returns so i guess i can return. Do you think i should cancel my order?

The quality of the optics and the image are far more important on whether the microscope is mono, or stereo. A 2D image with more detail is better than a 3D image with less.
As far as whether to cancel your order, I don't think anybody here can answer this question. It seems that amazon is just the platform that a 3rd party is using to sell the microscope, so you want to check with the return policy of that 3rd party.

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Originally Posted by gugi

The quality of the optics and the image are far more important on whether the microscope is mono, or stereo. A 2D image with more detail is better than a 3D image with less.
As far as whether to cancel your order, I don't think anybody here can answer this question. It seems that amazon is just the platform that a 3rd party is using to sell the microscope, so you want to check with the return policy of that 3rd party.

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i see..... the return policy is dictated by amazon. i don't think i will have a problem canceling. do you have any suggestions on what to get?

I went to radio shack yesterday for a resistor for one of my helicopters, while i was there i saw the plastic microscope ive heard about. I took it home and tried it, and it was way too difficult to see anything and the lighting was horrible. the edge needs to be so close that you can't get any light in the damn view. I was also kinda scared i might just slice a finger. I had intended finding a microscope, and start trying to hone again. Since the microscope portion of my mission was failed, i gave it another shot.

I really wanted to use my Dovo all stainless, so i figured i'd try my hand at honing it. I have shaved with it out of the box, and i was happy with the ATG and XTG results. Since it is stainless steel and from all i have heard, it is harder to hone i started with 5 laps on the 4k with pressure 15 no pressure. canvas for 10 laps Went to the 8k and did 5 laps medium pressure 15 no pressure. went to the canvas did 10 laps went to the 12k. Between the change in stones, i looked at the edge to see how it reflecting light (not sure if this is a testament to a good edge, but if i interpreted what i have read correctly it is). after it all i went to the canvas did 50 laps, and 70 on leather.

I was really excited to shave, I don't know if it was all my excitement but it felt sharper and i felt i got a better shave than when i took it out of the box. I really wish i had shaved one cheek before honing, and one after because as much as i tried i could not remember from memory if it was excitement, or reality that it shaved better.

ATG out of the box, the blade felt strong but not sharp enough. after honing the blade felt sharp enough, but not strong enough? not sure if that all makes sense. I have a wade & butcher razor that has the same feeling (sharp but weak metal), WTG it is great but ATG it feels flimsy like it's skipping over hair and it in fact does miss hair. The Dovo did the same thing, i went to ATG confident that it was sharper than when i took it out of the box, I went ATG, and it felt sharp, but week. I start ATG under my chin and move to the left side of my neck then the right. I didn't make it past under my chin before switching to a DE. IT was not causing irritation at all, and where it did grab on to hair it clean cut them. Some hair though seemed to tough for it to cut, and it did the same move as the W&B (jumping/skipping over hair).

So now i'm unsure of what the hell i did with the edge, did i just polish it and not make it any sharper? i mean at this point, i'm just happy i didn't screw up and kept a shaving edge lol. I'm still not happy with the results though, and really want a microscope to see all that is going on.

While cheap, I have found little that can beat it...especially for the price. You need magnification to literally see what is going on: Illuminated Microscope - RadioShack.com I will admit that I would like something that will provide more magnification (you really have to leave this cheap one on 60x for good results & keep fresh batteries in it), but I am in no hurry to pony up the Benjamin's for it...

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

While cheap, I have found little that can beat it...especially for the price. You need magnification to literally see what is going on: Illuminated Microscope - RadioShack.com I will admit that I would like something that will provide more magnification (you really have to leave this cheap one on 60x for good results & keep fresh batteries in it), but I am in no hurry to pony up the Benjamin's for it...

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Scott!! how are you? i hope the holidays were great.

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

I went to radio shack yesterday for a resistor for one of my helicopters, while i was there i saw the plastic microscope ive heard about. I took it home and tried it, and it was way too difficult to see anything and the lighting was horrible. the edge needs to be so close that you can't get any light in the damn view. I was also kinda scared i might just slice a finger. I had intended finding a microscope, and start trying to hone again. Since the microscope portion of my mission was failed, i gave it another shot.

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It's a reverse direction thing. You'll get used to it. Also, you must experiment with different angles of the scope and light directions. Also: you must get yourself rechargeable batteries, do this first thing if you are just starting with the Radioshack microscope. It's actually a scheme to force you to purchase more batteries from Radioshack! And you thought you were a bare bones kind of guy... heh heh heh...

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

I do not like buying cheap items because i find they cost more (aggravation/money) in the end than what i saved.

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Now you have the 'shack, go get a charger and the batteries or you'll be even sorrier then when this thread began!

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

I really wanted to use my Dovo all stainless, so i figured i'd try my hand at honing it. I have shaved with it out of the box, and i was happy with the ATG and XTG results. Since it is stainless steel and from all i have heard, it is harder to hone i started with 5 laps on the 4k with pressure 15 no pressure. canvas for 10 laps Went to the 8k and did 5 laps medium pressure 15 no pressure. went to the canvas did 10 laps went to the 12k. Between the change in stones, i looked at the edge to see how it reflecting light (not sure if this is a testament to a good edge, but if i interpreted what i have read correctly it is). after it all i went to the canvas did 50 laps, and 70 on leather.

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How many laps finished on the 12k?

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

I was really excited to shave, I don't know if it was all my excitement but it felt sharper and i felt i got a better shave than when i took it out of the box. I really wish i had shaved one cheek before honing, and one after because as much as i tried i could not remember from memory if it was excitement, or reality that it shaved better.

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I don't know why you decided to try honing it when it was already shaving well ATG out of the box. But you really wanted to. I hope you try to use that Batteryshack microscope you have now, it's really good at getting close-ups with a level of detail that lets you see SO much of what you A) had, and B) are making. It also lets you see in great detail what a single bad stroke on the hone can do to the new edge you are creating/destroying. A 20x-30x 'scope can let you see up and down the length of the blade with great speed, because they have higher resolutions you can cross a lot of terrain quickly, so you won't wear out all of your batteries (you'll be picking them up with the other stuff (like the 'copters) you have to get).

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

ATG out of the box, the blade felt strong but not sharp enough. after honing the blade felt sharp enough, but not strong enough? not sure if that all makes sense. I have a wade & butcher razor that has the same feeling (sharp but weak metal), WTG it is great but ATG it feels flimsy like it's skipping over hair and it in fact does miss hair. The Dovo did the same thing, i went to ATG confident that it was sharper than when i took it out of the box, I went ATG, and it felt sharp, but week. I start ATG under my chin and move to the left side of my neck then the right. I didn't make it past under my chin before switching to a DE. IT was not causing irritation at all, and where it did grab on to hair it clean cut them. Some hair though seemed to tough for it to cut, and it did the same move as the W&B (jumping/skipping over hair).

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I don't know what you're saying with sharp vs. strong. Doing true ATG strokes is problematic for many, don't blame the razor too quickly. Lather for slickness (did it get a little dry?), proper softening of the hair, etc. becomes even more important. Some people just hate it. Some barber's manuals recommend against it.

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

So now i'm unsure of what the hell i did with the edge, did i just polish it and not make it any sharper? i mean at this point, i'm just happy i didn't screw up and kept a shaving edge lol. I'm still not happy with the results though, and really want a microscope to see all that is going on.

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Polishing is sharpening, if you are polishing the very edge of the.. edge. If you can't tell the difference between the edge you put on and the factory edge, and you were happy with the factory edge, you can count yourself a success at making an edge that shaves you well enough, for the most part. If you'd taken the time and effort to use the microscope you would have seen the difference with your own eyes (well, kind of..). But, let this be a lesson to you: even if you had seen it with your own eyes augmented with the microscope, you would have detailed images IN YOUR MIND as to what it was, what was happening, and how it turns out, what it looks like now and maybe even the difference between the two. You seem to be approaching a hobby with the mindset of someone who's working against himself.

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

i meant not to offend anyone. It is my opinion. I will more than likely have to go to a microscope, because like i have mentioned i failed twice. i'm clearly too novice to know better so please..... don't take my words to seriously.

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Okay, so don't have the stereoscopic one? Please, just try to get good at using the 'Shack. I know I know... it's too hard. Think about what you'd be shaving with if you hadn't tried to do what was "hard" with those str8s 12 months ago. Look at your obvious success at honing a new edge into a factory new stainless Dovo (stainless!). Look at how you've answered your own questions from the Original Post. Yer freakin' great. You just don't know it ('cuz your a baby when usin' the 'Shack).

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

i have a dmt, which has some imperfection somewhere because it made visible scratches on my stones. I now lap them with wet/dry 3m sand paper on my counter top. works very well for me, and i will continue it.

The dmt made the scratches on the first shot so it was not me.

again. i meant no harm. i'm stupid in the subject. i didn't to offend or be snub. please keep it constructive.

thanks.

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I believe you meant on the subject. Time to go back to the DMT. You're going to need to start using it to save money from using sandpaper... you'll need the extra money to purchase more batteries and/or charger. Get to work on taking the high points off that DMT. See how constructive this thread is? And I don't want to hear any excuses! "Too hard" "not for me" "I'm stoopid" etc. isn't going to work anymore because now we all know what a great honer you may turn out to be. You've been stropping some razors for a year, using a little rotation 3x a week, right? Why don't you just give the microscope(s) a decent shot, it will magnify the learning potential from those honing sessions (see what I did there?).

Well, it is apparent you've got a lot of "issues" with this whole honing thing. I hope you can get some of them resolved. I hope you have continued success and happy shaving with your "Art of Soulessness" razor (it's in another thread). Hope you've got rechargeable batteries, if not, why not make a thread asking for advice on what the best rechargeables are? I have energizer, only had AAA in four packs but I'm sure I'll use 'em up. That Batteryshack 'scope is a beast!

Let me do a pre-emptive explanation for 'scopes: They are great, they help a lot, they can make us more efficient by avoiding backtracking, they can make us more efficient by showing us the need to backtrack, they are optional.

You can still learn how to do it by feel and estimate steel hardness and make reasonable assumption of when an edge is finished on a stone before progressing to the next one. Last night I cleaned up the untaped spine and cleaned up the far side of the bevel (to prevent large flakes of semi-corroded steel from ruining things) of a wedge. Plenty of surface area to feel the metal's conversation with the stones. I really enjoyed just movin' on up through the stones without a worry, simply feeling the difference of the stone, feeling the difference of the metal's surface changing on the stone, moving up and feeling the transformation at every level. I've taken a few edges from a pre-polished stage up through finishing without looking at the edge with a microscope. It was an option, and I've enjoyed it. Not having the option is a bad way to do it.

One of the things that helped me the most when learning to hone was learning what properly honed razor should feel like on the stones. Get a razor or two honed professionally and shave test to make sure it meets your standard. Do not strop. Take the razor to the finest stone you have and perform some laps light as a feather, Taking special notice to how the razor feels as it glides across the hone. It should feel this way off of each hone before you go to the next one. IMO, microscopes and loupes are great, almost indispensable tools for the initial steps in the honing process, but nothing can replace the feel of the steel on the stone.

thank you for all of your information. It is a huge help. is it possible though that stainless steel could be giving me the effect of a weak steal? or is it just the edge i made is not sharp enough to go atg?

I have purchased many razors from numerous store front businesses on the web but only a scant few send you truly shave ready blades. Be prepared to send them out or be prepared to learn to hone correctly.

I have close to 200 razors and if I didn't know how to hone, I would be in deep trouble. Good Luck.....

Jerry
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. . . or is it just the edge i made is not sharp enough to go atg?

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That would be my bet. But I haven't seen, or shaved with, the razor.

. . . When you hold it 1/8" above your arm, and "shave" with it above the skin, does it "pop" arm hairs ?

. Charles

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Originally Posted by Jp1munoz

Scott!! how are you? i hope the holidays were great.

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Life is good and God is great, thanks for asking Juan!

We need to get you on the right track & one of the best ways to save a LOT of frustration is to find a mentor, someone who is good on the stones & can show you the ropes. A couple hours of face-time with a veteran honer will really show you what's going on & the proverbial light-bulb will flicker to life:idea: