Wondering about the Mastri Livi style of honing...

SnakeRazor - YouTube

Ok, now... I know this video has been talked about many times with varying comments about "What's he doing to that razor!" to "Shut up... this man is a master." The second statement is the true one, btw. When I first saw it, obviously I realized that it's different than how I learned, but, being a philosophy student, I remembered two quotes. One quote from Socrates, "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.” And one quote from Mikhail Bakunin, "Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker" So, I picked up an old Fritz Bracht that I had in a box which didn't even have a bevel and grabbed a dmt 325, king 1000, norton 4/8, and my L.I.... and in less than five minutes, that razor was done. Like... f'n done. Stropped up, HHT... done. Like I said, I'm a philosophy major, and I learned a long time ago that Socrates knows what he's talking about... Bakunin, too, for that matter.

I'm pretty sure that the reason it works so well, is that for all but the last few strokes on each stone, you're backhoning as well, so you're pretty much prematurely fighting off overhoning, while at the same time, using each successive stone to remove the scratch pattern of the previous one. Once that scratch pattern is removed and a few finishing strokes are added to solidify the pattern of the current stone in the progression, and remove all evidence of backhoning... you move to the next stone. It's simple and it works, case closed. That's my analysis anyway. Thoughts?

Thanks for the interesting video! Hadn't seen it before!

You are quite right, there are many ways to hone a razor to a shave-ready state:)

While I haven't used his methods myself, I've been fortunate enough to get me a Livi Snake.
And rest assured, that thing is a stellar shaver with a killer edge!

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Originally Posted by Birnando

You are quite right, there are many ways to hone a razor to a shave-ready state:)

While I haven't used his methods myself, I've been fortunate enough to get me a Livi Snake.
And rest assured, that thing is a stellar shaver with a killer edge!

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I want one, something fierce... but considering I'd have to sell every razor I have now and probably a couple of hones to be able to afford one, I'll just continue to want for now. haha

I thought that video started with "Don't try this at home folks !" :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I thought that video started with "Don't try this at home folks !" :rofl2:

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Haha! It probably did, Jimmy... but I'm that guy who set his parents house of fire after watching Beavis and Butthead.

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Originally Posted by kamikazeproject

Haha! It probably did, Jimmy... but I'm that guy who set his parents house of fire after watching Beavis and Butthead.

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Actually, the parents of that kid never had cable, so he couldn't have seen it--it was just in vogue then to blame that show for everything bad that happened. ;) Sorry to hijack, but I just had to mention that!

Back to the point, yeah, it's a little different than what we usually do--he does seem to do a bit more pasted stropping than we usually do, but it does work for him. Pretty sure that the steel he uses in those beauties can take a little more, too, so maybe that's a factor as well. :thinking:

Im sure i heard the same thing. Dont try this at home. Lol.

Can anyone identify the hones he is using?

Yeah, Lynn asked him a while back, I think.

1- japanese stone 300/1000 orange/blue (MinoSharp)

2- japanese stone 3000 yellow (MinoSharp)

3- belgium cuticule stone
4- arkansas stone

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Originally Posted by kamikazeproject

Yeah, Lynn asked him a while back, I think.

1- japanese stone 300/1000 orange/blue (MinoSharp)

2- japanese stone 3000 yellow (MinoSharp)

3- belgium cuticule stone
4- arkansas stone

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Cool. I thought those last 2 were a coti and an ark. Has anyone tried an ark? I dont see too many people using the. If they do there not posting it. Do you know which ark it is?

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Originally Posted by nicknbleeding

Cool. I thought those last 2 were a coti and an ark. Has anyone tried an ark? I dont see too many people using the. If they do there not posting it. Do you know which ark it is?

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The last stone he is using is a translucent Ark and yes a few here use them, but most claim on here they are to slow!!
ever heard of a PHIG? slowwwwwwwww

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Originally Posted by nicknbleeding

Cool. I thought those last 2 were a coti and an ark. Has anyone tried an ark? I dont see too many people using the. If they do there not posting it. Do you know which ark it is?

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I'd say it's just a hard translucent, from the looks of it. I've never used one for razors, but I have for knives. I think most people don't use them because they're slow. But then again, some of the same people who won't use them because they're slow will use those Chinese 12k things until the sun burns out of the sky and sucks up the world. Which, I don't know about all of them, but the one I had (and subsequently gave away) was exhausting. My shoulder muscles literally started aching with that godforsaken piece of rock. With that fast "to and fro" motion that he uses though, I doubt there's really such thing as a slow stone. My L.I. is normally pretty slow, but not using it like that. This style though... I don't know how well it would work with a blade that's got any kind of real smile to it. I'm sure someone who's better than me could do it, but I doubt I could.

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Originally Posted by Martin103

The last stone he is using is a translucent Ark and yes a few here use them, but most claim on here they are to slow!!
ever heard of a PHIG? slowwwwwwwww

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haha, I opened a window to reply with the exact same thing, and went to get something to eat... then when I posted it, you'd had the same exact thought. Great minds my friend...

Lol. Ok so if i read between the lines your both telling me its slow. Lol.

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Originally Posted by nicknbleeding

Lol. Ok so if i read between the lines your both telling me its slow. Lol.

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I never used a translucent for razors mine is to small for razors but i will at some point try it for sure, i mean if a master
razor makers uses them it got to be good and he just follows that with paste......

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Originally Posted by Martin103

I never used a translucent for razors mine is to small for razors but i will at some point try it for sure, i mean if a master
razor makers uses them it got to be good and he just follows that with paste......

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I think there on the cheaper side. Im wondering how comfortable his razors are to shave with. I am interested in his use of paste.

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Originally Posted by nicknbleeding

I think there on the cheaper side. Im wondering how comfortable his razors are to shave with. I am interested in his use of paste.

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Have bought two (both brand new) this one in AB. the same in Mammoth,out of the box niether shaved well,but maybe it's just me,no longer have them.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...one/BigAzz.jpg

Sometimes, I think the scales are a bit much on some of his razors. The heavy use of abalone reminds me of when I first started playing the guitar, years ago. I was big into all the abalone and mother of pearl inlay work, especially on Lariveé headstocks. And I still think they're amazing, but now that I'm a little older, I'm more impressed by simplicity. I've got a handmade acoustic that doesn't have any inlays at all in the whole thing and sports a satin finish. I think that mentality has extended over the rest of my life.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Have bought two (both brand new) this one in AB. the same in Mammoth,out of the box niether shaved well,but maybe it's just me,no longer have them.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...one/BigAzz.jpg

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Thank you. There nice razors but i dont think he has the time to perfect the edge. Gets them to cut hair and shows it can get and edge. Just my thought.

They shave out of the box,but not in a refined way,cannot explaine it.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

They shave out of the box,but not in a refined way,cannot explaine it.

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That may be the case with yours, but it sure wasn't with my Livi's:)
I've had the great pleasure of trying out the honing of many of the renowned honers out there, and the Snake I recently received was not in any way inferior to most any of them!

I also did have the abalone one that is pictured. it shaved like a dream out of the box. my inox damask also shaved very well indeed. I could tell they had been heavaly pasted on crox by the feel. still the razors were very smooth and sharp.

meistro is a very talanted man, i love his dvd's
gary

Don't get me wrong,they are fabulous razors for sure,Are many variables as we all know,diff face,diff beard,diff prep,the list go's on.

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Originally Posted by kamikazeproject

I'd say it's just a hard translucent, from the looks of it. I've never used one for razors, but I have for knives. I think most people don't use them because they're slow. But then again, some of the same people who won't use them because they're slow will use those Chinese 12k things until the sun burns out of the sky and sucks up the world. Which, I don't know about all of them, but the one I had (and subsequently gave away) was exhausting. My shoulder muscles literally started aching with that godforsaken piece of rock. With that fast "to and fro" motion that he uses though, I doubt there's really such thing as a slow stone. My L.I. is normally pretty slow, but not using it like that. This style though... I don't know how well it would work with a blade that's got any kind of real smile to it. I'm sure someone who's better than me could do it, but I doubt I could.

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I've been experimenting with my Trans Ark lately, I'm using oil and lots of 1/2 x-strokes with very little pressure.
Of my 4 test razors, one got a A++ edge, the other ones not as much (but still useable). I think it comes down to the proper previous stone (as with all finishing hones) and I haven't found the right one yet.

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Originally Posted by rodb

I've been experimenting with my Trans Ark lately, I'm using oil and lots of 1/2 x-strokes with very little pressure.
Of my 4 test razors, one got a A++ edge, the other ones not as much (but still useable). I think it comes down to the proper previous stone (as with all finishing hones) and I haven't found the right one yet.

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I finally read that "Norton 4000/8000 for all of January" thread this morning, so I used this method on a Joseph Rodgers that's been sitting in a box for a few months... and I'll be honest, I'm kinda wondering why I ever even started buying finishers. haha You have to hit it a little harder with the linen, but other than that, the end result is the exact same.

Im glad you guys were getting great shaves out of the box. Im sure He cant test shave every razor he hones. So im sure a few will slip through the cracks.

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Originally Posted by kamikazeproject

I finally read that "Norton 4000/8000 for all of January" thread this morning, so I used this method on a Joseph Rodgers that's been sitting in a box for a few months... and I'll be honest, I'm kinda wondering why I ever even started buying finishers. haha You have to hit it a little harder with the linen, but other than that, the end result is the exact same.

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WOW! You read the whole thread. So what did you try on your JR? Are you refering to linen stropping?

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Originally Posted by nicknbleeding

WOW! You read the whole thread. So what did you try on your JR? Are you refering to linen stropping?

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Haha! Hell no. I hadn't ever clicked on the thread, so I didn't know about it. I just used this M.L. style honing using only a 4/8 norton. Yeah, I mean the linen strop. I don't know about other people, but for me, hitting it hard with the linen is the key to getting a razor to pass the HHT off of the 8000. Like I said though, that's just me... everyone gets to the finish line a little differently.

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Originally Posted by kamikazeproject

Haha! Hell no. I hadn't ever clicked on the thread, so I didn't know about it. I just used this M.L. style honing using only a 4/8 norton. Yeah, I mean the linen strop. I don't know about other people, but for me, hitting it hard with the linen is the key to getting a razor to pass the HHT off of the 8000. Like I said though, that's just me... everyone gets to the finish line a little differently.

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Are you doing the HHT off the 8k without using a 1k?

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Originally Posted by rodb

I've been experimenting with my Trans Ark lately, I'm using oil and lots of 1/2 x-strokes with very little pressure.
Of my 4 test razors, one got a A++ edge, the other ones not as much (but still useable). I think it comes down to the proper previous stone (as with all finishing hones) and I haven't found the right one yet.

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Do you have a good hard arkansas stone (not a trans or a black arkansas, but a white hard thats just a tad more coasre) that's been allowed to wear a little on the surface? Or any hard arkansas at all?

my trans arkansas will yield a good arkansas as long as I leave the surface settled and do a decent job with the leather (bare leather, nothing after the stone), but the razor has to be brought to it from a stone that doesn't leave deep grooves.

Watching this video over and over again I get the feeling that the Mastro Livi razors are not sold as shave ready and must be honed.
Can anyone here who recently bought a Mastro Livi confirm or reject my feeling?
Thanks.

Sharp is a very subjective thing. I touched a Livi up for someone who thought is wasn't quite shave ready, I thought it was fine. I did 10 laps on .25 and 10 another on .125 diamond spray and he's in love again.

As far as Livi's honing technique, I've seen old timers do it similarly and get excellent results. I've seen these same cats slap the shit out of razor on their strops and the razors shave great. It's all about what works.

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

As far as Livi's honing technique, I've seen old timers do it similarly and get excellent results. I've seen these same cats slap the shit out of razor on their strops and the razors shave great. It's all about what works.

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Ditto that. As long as the fine work gets to the edge of the razor and wipes out everything prior, and the edge doesn't get abused on the strop, the edge should be good. It might be a bit finer if someone follows all of the rules, but the difference between 3 times as sharp as it needs to be to shave and 5 times as sharp as it needs to be to shave would have to come to the user.

Ham handing a razor worries me for two reasons:
* flexing the razor under pressure for a beginner
* rolling a strop a bit on an edge for pressure and wearing the edge more blunt than it needs to be

On my very finest hones, as long as I don't put excessive razor flexing pressure on the razor, they are not that sensitive to technique - as long as they work the metal all the way to the edge. Hones that aren't as fine or forgiving (like oilstones or some synthetics), I don't get as good of an edge without minding the pressure.

But if you develop an every day routine that works every time and quickly, then why bother with other folks' rules. (that obviously doesn't apply to beginners, because they're probably not going to luck into a great edge ham handing a razor around on the stones and strop).

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Originally Posted by Slur

Watching this video over and over again I get the feeling that the Mastro Livi razors are not sold as shave ready and must be honed.
Can anyone here who recently bought a Mastro Livi confirm or reject my feeling?
Thanks.

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As I stated earlier in this thread, both my Livi's came with woderfully smooth and sharp edges.