Twisted Dovo - Honing help needed (Bevel setting)

I am new to honing, but I have been trying to read up, search and practice on various stones and razors.

My problem is the difficulty of bevel setting. Seems utterly impossible to pass TNT and pop hairs off the arm on the 1k level. If I get drag on TNT and cut arm hair on 1k king stone and then move up to 6k king, after few laps it wont cut hair anymore. I guess I dont have the bevel properly set?

The more serious problem is that the new dovo that I bought wont lay flat on the lapped hones. It seems to have a 'twist' in the blade. I have tried the rolling-x on the side of my 1k stone while helping with the other hand to maintain edge contact through the stroke. In the other direction edge contact is much easier to maintain. I have tried the marker test to make sure that I am touching the whole edge, but despite my efforts I have not been able to set the bevel. The only exception is the toe of the blade where the TNT seems to pass every time.

Now the bevel is no longer same width along the edge, but it is there the along the entire edge. What is the remedy to this problem?

Here are some pictures I tried to take with a 60x and a camera. Could be better pictures but they have to suffice for now. The scale is millimeters.

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I tried to examine the problem more carefully and the blade might be warped not twisted - it is hard to say because error is not very big. On the side that is warped in the warp is not big enough to let the wake go under the mid-section while on the other side it is very clear the edge is not flat.

On your photos the bevel seems ok to me. The striations go to the edge (unless those are smudges and not striations) and once you hone past the microchips you'll have a shaving edge. Of course it depends on whet's happening on the other side and all along the edge, as this is only a small section.
That edge may be a bit overhoned, certainly not ready to shave yet, but if it was me at this stage I'd be using the norton 4k or the naniwa 5k.

Honing warped blades is a bit more challenging than honing nonwarped blades, I usually go by the feedback from the water on the hone.
My experience with the king hones is next to none, so I can't really tell you what to expect from your honing progression.

Listen to Gugi - he knows of what he speaks. I would just like to add that if this is among your first honing attempts you will find a bit of the old magic marker along the edge can do wonders to help you visualise what is going on with a warped blade.

Good luck!

James.

Can you show a couple pictures of the whole razor so that we can look at the spine wear on both sides??

Thanks,

Lynn

It is hard to tell from pics in general as light angle is often varied but the second pic may show an incomplete bevel or slight wire or burr. First pic looks ok.
It is common to create a burr on warped blades as unless your stroke perfectly follows the edge & spine you will hone more on one side due to lack of contact on the other. Stropping on linen will magnify the problem further as the edge is more fragile in spots & will look rough @ magnification. It is not a problem with your hones but your razor.

Some people find narrow hones easier to use in these cases but it is no problem on a 3" hone with a little practice. You need to rock &/or roll the blade more near the edge of the hone & be sure the hone edges are well smooth & chamfered. You may choose to hone specific areas a little more to compensate but it must be done carefully to avoid creating frowns especially if the warp is in the centre of the blade.

The plus side is, if you can get it right, you will be able to hone most razors :)

Thanks, for the replies. This really is a great forum, I hope I can some time also contribute and help others. Taking pictures of edges is challenging and the varying light (like in the above) angle makes the edge seem very different from picture to another. My guess is that there was a bended burr or incomplete bevel.

I already got some pointers last night from the chat. I honed again on the side of my hones and rounded the hone corners with sandpaper. I made some progress and got closer but it still needs more work. According to the marker test the edge is making proper contact on both sides.

Lynn - I use tape so there is no wear marks on the spine, but I will post some pics anyway.
As you see, slight smile and uneven bevel wear.

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I've seen & honed worse. This is an instance where not taping may have helped correct the spine a little but carry on. I wouldn't mind betting your close. Remember however that the edge follows the shape of the spine.
The high spots are highlighted. The warp is at the yellow line. From the factory honing it appears the warp is in the spine rather than an oddly ground edge.

You are right, the spine is not even and it is pretty obvious. The middle of the spine is narrower than the heel or the toe. I guess not using tape might flatten that out a bit, but with my experience I rather first learn how to set the bevel and hone from there than start correcting warps and other slight irregularities in the razor. Later, I might come back and do some correcting.

BTW. The hone bug really bit me as I am not liking my 6k king that much. I ordered a long and narrow coticule for this kind of problems and also the 3k/8k naniwa ss combo. That should get me covered.

Ok, I think I am catching on. Still not good bevel set but learning all the time. My problem might be that I am doing too much and too unevenly. Frustrated by the failures - I decided to ditch the tape and the microscope and go with as few strokes as possible. Also I really tried to hit that edge evenly. Looking at the jagged edge with the microscope was driving me crazy and kept me honing on when I should have stopped. It cant take for hours to get a bevel set. Especially, if you are already close.

I went down to dmt 600, because i was setting the entire bevel again (without tape). 40+40 circles on both sides with firm pressure and few light rolling-x strokes. Good drag on the heel and the toe (because of the warp the middle was not getting even grind) and cuts hair well at those parts. I did few more x's and tnt drag all along. So I think I was set for the 1k. Again 20 circles and few rol-x's and the edge was completely gone?! WTF? I did few more really evenly and lightly and the bevel almost came back. This taught me how little it takes to set the bevel and how little it takes to mess it up.

Having said that, it is interesting that Lynn and Glen seem to use quite a bit of pressure on the bevel setting. I can do that too, but it seems always the following light strokes that are supposed to set the bevel do more harm than good as the edge gets these chips and seems to fall apart.

Is it so that the firm circles just get rid of enough metal to establish a new bevel and the *light* x-strokes are what actually set the final bevel. By that I mean, is the razor passing tnt and shaving hair already after the firm circles?

One culprit of mine might also be that pressure is directed to a much smaller portion of the edge with the rol-x and it is too uneven and it just cant take it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

Having said that, it is interesting that Lynn and Glen seem to use quite a bit of pressure on the bevel setting. I can do that too, but it seems always the following light strokes that are supposed to set the bevel do more harm than good as the edge gets these chips and seems to fall apart. Are they chips or is it a ragged burr. Run the edge over a glass & see if the chips disappear. If so it is a burr & not chipping

Is it so that the firm circles just get rid of enough metal to establish a new bevel and the *light* x-strokes are what actually set the final bevel. By that I mean, is the razor passing tnt and shaving hair already after the firm circles? Setting a bevel is basically grinding to shape. The light strokes are to refine the shape.

One culprit of mine might also be that pressure is directed to a much smaller portion of the edge with the rol-x and it is too uneven and it just cant take it.

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The unevenness may well promote edge fragility. Sometimes you need to work a specific area, ie the high spots,a little more than the rest. I think this what Glen calls "pushing" the edge but don't quote me. That's just my interpretation.

I think that the jaggedness is so large that no amount of drawing against glass will remove it, but i will check once i get home. IIRC the glass does affect the very edge of the edge but the chips are deeper than that. I think I might try to do a video shortly as there is very little chance to get some in-person guidance where I am living at.

IIRC you said you used a DMT as well ? This can tear up the edge a bit too. Why not send the razor out to someone with some experience . They could assess your honing & the razor. No shame in accepting temporary limitations but as I said before if you persevere & succeed you will have learned a lot.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

IIRC you said you used a DMT as well ? This can tear up the edge a bit too. Why not send the razor out to someone with some experience . They could assess your honing & the razor. No shame in accepting temporary limitations but as I said before if you persevere & succeed you will have learned a lot.

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Well I had not taken the dovo down to the dmt 600 before, this morning i did. Actually the edge seemed rather smooth under the scope. The scratch marks are much smaller than the chips and other irregularities. If I dont get this right soon, I will send it to Lynn or Blix as they have offered to help me.

And you are right, even though I havent been successful yet, I have learned a *ton* of things about sharpening razors already. I guess everybody has to pay the price in the beginning in order to learn these things.

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

Well I had not taken the dovo down to the dmt 600 before, this morning i did. Actually the edge seemed rather smooth under the scope. The scratch marks are much smaller than the chips and other irregularities. If I dont get this right soon, I will send it to Lynn or Blix as they have offered to help me.

And you are right, even though I havent been successful yet, I have learned a *ton* of things about sharpening razors already. I guess everybody has to pay the price in the beginning in order to learn these things.

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Excellent, no harm in getting a little help. Chips & irregularities may be from excess pressure too. There's a lot to consider but we all pay our dues & learn. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

Having said that, it is interesting that Lynn and Glen seem to use quite a bit of pressure on the bevel setting. I can do that too, but it seems always the following light strokes that are supposed to set the bevel do more harm than good as the edge gets these chips and seems to fall apart.

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Totally feel like you.
Once I'm good at DMT 325 and move on to Naniwa Super Stone 2k, the bevel "disappear" (or once I'm good at Naniwa Super Stone 2k and move on to the 5k)
Especially when I try a with some pressure at the very beginning to reset things.

Ok I made a video of the honing. See if those help you to help me :)

Part 1.
TwistedDovoHoning_part1.AVI - YouTube
Part 2.
TwistedDovoHoning_part2.AVI - YouTube

I think you may have it back to front ?
The side that has the centre high spot should be rocked upward starting with the toe slightly raised to make contact at the heel .
The side where the centre is not flat on the stone should be rocked downward... or is that what you are doing ?
Personally I find these actions easier with one hand but I know not everybody does that.


Another thing is that the thumbnail test is not so different to to using the glass on the edge. A little more honing after the TNT is always needed before attempting to cut hair.

I managed to put an edge on the dovo. Jay! BUT, it is still not I want. The 6k king keeps killing me and once the naniwa ss 3k/8k compo arrives I will try a pyramid to see if that helps.

I hate those warped blades! If the warp is bad, then honing on a DMT for a bit helps reduce the high spots on the spine and even it out a bit. I then usually add a layer of tape and let that wear down on the high spots during bevel setting, adding a second layer of tape to even things up a bit more and 'lift' the spine a bit so that the bevel sits at a slightly more acute angle on the hone, which sometimes helps. If the warp isn't too bad, just one layer of tape, changed often, may do the trick. If all else fails you may need to resort to narrower hones.

I hope your counter top is a bit irregular, by the way! In those last photos the bevel looks a bit undulating in places, but that could be the light or the counter top.

With regards to the King 1k/6k, the 1k is very fast (I prefer it to the Norton 1k, even if the King needs more frequent lapping) and the 6k side is more like a 5k. Even so, the jump from 1k to 5k is a bit much for me - a 2k or 3k in between suits me better.

I'm not sure if I read your post correctly, but are you finishing with 6k King and attempting to shave? I suppose that can be done, but even an 8k (although in the hands of a very competent user an 8k can give a very good shaving edge) isn't enough for most people, I have found - 10k seems to be a good starting point for a finishing stone, but that's only my opinion!

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

I managed to put an edge on the dovo. Jay! BUT, it is still not I want. The 6k king keeps killing me and once the naniwa ss 3k/8k compo arrives I will try a pyramid to see if that helps.

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Don't be concerned about "apparent" dullness as you progress. As long as your strokes are consistent the final stropping should see you with a good edge.
If however you are trying to shave off 6k I would expect less than perfect results.

Sorry Neil, I didn't bring that out earlier but after the 6k king I have a 12k naniwa to go and then a 1um diamond, 0.25um diamond and 0.5crox to finish things off. Then its off to the linen and leather strop.

I got an ok shave from the dovo today but not really comfortable. Cut ok during the WTG, but ATG and XTG second pass was a bit pushing it. Little tugging and pulling going on. Despite that, I must say that it was one of my better shaves yet, but my shaving technique is improving all the time as well so it is hard to say which is the main cause. After the shave no real irritation but not BBS and one rather bad cut due to my fault.

But anyways, I am making progress. Just, I dont feel that I have made that good bevel set yet. Just something in that direction that I have then tried to hone to a shavable end result.

Sounds like a win Mikko. No irritation is a good start. :)

Yeah, but the edge is not what I would expect from the descriptions of others on the 1k, 6k and 12k levels. It is after stropping that the edge starts performing which is tells me that I haven't quite got it right yet.

Now that this problem is almost solved I must say that a warped blade is not a good blade to practice honing with ;) There are enough things to learn even without the warp :D But thanks again to everyone who has contributed here and on the chat.

I will report this as well: I have some home made strop bases for the different abrasives mentioned earlier. The felt that I was using on the paddle with the diamond sprays is too soft after all, even though I thought it was hard enough. I ended up degrading (rounding) my edges instead of improving them. Ok, it did smooth out the edge, but the HHT and TPT showed signs of degrading performance.

The edge was easy get back on the 12k - and I redid the stropping on the mousepad material this time. Much better, and the microscope also verifies that; I see very little or no reflection at all coming from the edge of the edge.