Is the 4/8 and a strop all I need.

When I bought all my shaving gear, I was under the impression that the 4/8 hone and a strop would get me to shaving sharp, but now I am having my doubts.
I've been working on my dovo, and an older blade I got from Bill Ellis, but then dulled when I stropped it, for several weeks. I can't seem to get past a certain (unsatifactory) level of keeness.
My question to all the honemeisters is this: do you do your honing on just the norton, or do you use other steps like barber's hones, or pasted strops.
I have this thing that "if he can do it so can I." So, I'm having a hard time sending out my razors for honing. Its like admitting defeat.
Like I said, I'm just starting to think that I need more gear. Or maybe I just need more practice.
Thanks, you gentlemen kick butt.
Dan

Its a question I can't answer. A Norton 4/8 is plenty to get a sharp razor but you need to be well practiced to get there. I find the barber hones to be great help so I can recommend them. You can toss them in before 8K or after.

More importantly though the barber hones can be easier for a few reasons. One, they hone slower and two then don't have the gummy effect of an 8K. They don't require as much lapping and they can be held in the hand. Wow, lots or reasons the barber hones are "better".

But, you can compensate for all that very easily and learn how the Norton 4/8 K is superior in its own way and excellent all by itself.

One, make sure its lapped. Two, use the 8K. Smooth out the bevel completely. Use some pressure and get that bevel smooth. Then learn to carefully reduce pressure to less and less in order to get the edge sharp. Finally, with so much power at your finger tips make sure your not overhoning.

Your pioneer independent streak is admirable, but its no shame to send a blade out at all. But it does take some skill and understanding. I personally don't tune up my car or even change the oil, its the same thing but I was adamant like you were. I developed a good understanding of honing in a little less than 2 years, now in my 3rd year I'd say I'm OK and heading into good. I'm a worst case example, but do you have that kind of patience?

If you want to learn to hone, you actually have to learn to hone. Take a class with Randy via skype or get Lynn's DVD and actually put some clear understanding into your honing. Its a skill. Its very hard to learn from reading about it, like reading how to swing a golf club, the words rarely translate into action. For example, a "light touch" on the hone has no absolute value that can translate to you using your hone. Is it more than what your using now, or less? And how does it relate to your honing strokes and the antithisus of using a light touch which is keeping the blade flat? And what about the knowledge base you need to evalutate the blade. It sucks when I here about people honing on the wrong grit, with the wrong pressure level because they have no fundamental idea what there doing or why.

You have a lot to learn, just be patient. In the mean time though get a razor honed by a professional just so you can look at the bevel and see what sharp looks like under a microscope for comparison.

The method your using doesn't translate well from honing table to shave sink. It would be like tuning up a car in your garage and then having to drive it around to see if it drives better. Atleast learn what sharp looks and acts like on the honing table.

A 4/8 blade can be tough to hone, only a 3/8 is harder. Keeping the pressure balance even is the difficulty.
What is the name on your razor? Let us know.
If it is a Landers, Fray and Clark then that is one hard tempered steel razor!

You have been working on the razor for several weeks? Ok, we have done and heard that before. You most likely are now over honed. Overhoned means the edge is to thin. Thus it is weak. When an edge is weak it bends, curls or chips. We refer to this as a wire edge. Other professions call it a burr.
So...
1. Feel the edge of your blade with the pad of your thumb, both sides of the blade. Notice if it feels different at any spot. Remember that spot and how it feels in general.

2. Now perform the thumbnail test. You will probably feel an uneven "draw". remeber any place where the edge catches or skips.

3. Perform 10 back honing strokes on the 4000 grit Norton. This should wear off any wire edge. Then 5 normal strokes. Use 1-2 lbs of pressure.

4. Now do the thumb and thumbnail test again. The edge should feel more even with no catching. If it does not feel even then perform 5 more back honing strokes and 5 normal honing strokes.

5. Perform the two thumb tests again.

6. Now perform a sequence of the following pyramid

4000 hone/8000 hone
5/5 use 1-2 lbs of pressure
4/5 "" ""
3/5 "" ""
3/5 Light pressure
1/5 "
1/5 "
1/5 "

Then strop and shave test. Repeat if necessary starting at the 3/5 level.

Then let us know how it is going.
Contact me on Skype at any time
Send me a PM for my phone # if you want to call

Hope this helps,:)

Great post Randydance!

Any idea how those honing ratios stack up using a japanese 4K and 8K waterstone instead?

Like danno here, I too can get shave sharp but not honemeister sharp.....

Alan and Randy have given you all the goods here, Dan.

I like to top up my edges with pastes, but that only works well if the foundation achieved on the Norton 4/8 is sound. The HHT after the pyramid is a very telling test for my honing. Everything else is gravy.

X

yea I can't add more to the great advice you have been given. The only thing I would address is the issue of whether the 4/8 is sufficient to produce a great edge for shaving and to me the answer is yes it is. Does that mean it can't be improved upon? Certainly not it can always be improved upon but as a beginner until you master the 4/8 I'd settle for good results with that.

Personally I mainly use the yellow coticule to maintain all my razors at this point. If I'm working on an Eboy special then I fall back to the 4/8. I really don't use barbers hones though I have several I find the small hones difficult to use because of their size and difficult to get consistant results having to hold them in your hand. But thats me. many guys love them and get great results out of them so as your experience increases you can try them all and go with what you prefer.

Quote:

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A 4/8 blade can be tough to hone, only a 3/8 is harder. Keeping the pressure balance even is the difficulty.
What is the name on your razor? Let us know

---

.
Randy, I am currently working on a 5/8 inox dovo, and a 6/8 morely on a 4000/8000 grit hone.
Regardless, I will give your suggestion a try. I never thought I'd be overhoned when I never got really sharp to begin with, but I'm sure its possible.
If that doesn't work, I think I'll bite the bullet and send them out. What is typical turnaround time for some honing? (My only issue is that I'll be deploying overseas soon, so I don't have a lot of time)
Also, as an aside. . .I had a thought just now: when I got my strop out of the box (its a dovo strop) I didn't do anything to it, just started using it. Now I'm thinking maybe it needs some oil or something. Mink or mineral oil? Could that be a factor?
I'm learning so much from you guys and despite frustration, I'm having fun too.
Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbo

Great post Randydance!

Any idea how those honing ratios stack up using a japanese 4K and 8K waterstone instead?

Like danno here, I too can get shave sharp but not honemeister sharp.....

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It really depends on the specific brand of Japanese hone. I would increae the stroke count by 50% or more initially and see what the results are. Be sure to use a slurry with the Japanese stones. They cut much faster that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danno

.
Randy, I am currently working on a 5/8 inox dovo, and a 6/8 morely on a 4000/8000 grit hone.
Regardless, I will give your suggestion a try. I never thought I'd be overhoned when I never got really sharp to begin with, but I'm sure its possible.
If that doesn't work, I think I'll bite the bullet and send them out. What is typical turnaround time for some honing? (My only issue is that I'll be deploying overseas soon, so I don't have a lot of time)
Also, as an aside. . .I had a thought just now: when I got my strop out of the box (its a dovo strop) I didn't do anything to it, just started using it. Now I'm thinking maybe it needs some oil or something. Mink or mineral oil? Could that be a factor?
I'm learning so much from you guys and despite frustration, I'm having fun too.
Dan

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If your strop is new then it is good to go, nothing else is needed.

Contact Joe Chandler for honing and let him know the time constraints you are under.
agentjac0069@yahoo.com

Hope this helps,:)

Not a honemeister, but rather a guy more or less in your shoes.

My problem with my first blade was this: my first clumsy efforts to hone it from out-of-box sharp to shaving-sharp made the thing dull and uneven. I then fought to bring it back to life, using only the Norton 4k/8k. To my credit, I would sometimes nurse it to a pretty darn close and smooth shave; very satisfying! But after some weeks, it would need a touch-up, and I was as likely as not to ruin it as to freshen it up.

Consistency, then, was my problem. So I sent it (with a second purchase) to Lynn, and now have two wonderfully sharp razors. My first observation: Lynn's results are, along the full length of the blade, what I could manage on much (but never all) of the blade on my best day. This tells me that, given time, practice, and some mentorship, I'll manage the self-sufficiency that I'd like to have. I'll start by trying to maintain the good bevel put on these two babies by Lynn.

Hope this helps!

Hey fellas,
I took Randy's pyramid and saw some improvement, especially in my Morely. My Dovo Inox is still totally unusable.....Probably just need more patience with the stainless steel. My Morley will shave, but pulls and just sticks on the against the grain passes.
I really want to learn this valuable skill, but at this point I'm pretty much out of time I think, since I will be overseas for 6 months (Navy sending me away). I dunno, I may not even take my straights and just go back to the fusion (collective ghasp from the audience, some hisses, lol) while I am away. In the mean time I think I'll be emailing Joe Chandler for some honing services, then when I get back stateside (I don't know if you can really call Hawaii "stateside") I'll buy some ebay cheapos to learn on without taking any more valuable metal off of my good blades.

Thanks for your help guys.

Tape the spine of the DOVO inox and do some vigorous honing on the 4k to establish a bevel. Use a bit more pressure than customary and don't use too much water as you want to develop a slurry. Once the bevel is established, you can switch to the pyramid. You could have that baby shaving in a single day.

I'm sure that bevel is already there so you almost certainly DON"T need to tape the spine. You probably just need to figure out the "touch".

1. Start with more pressure at the beginning of the pyramid and taper of to ultra light toward the end.
2. I use less pressure on the 8k side than I do on the 4k for best results.
3. Even right along the whole edge.
4. Patience.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

A 4/8 blade can be tough to hone, only a 3/8 is harder. Keeping the pressure balance even is the difficulty.
What is the name on your razor? Let us know.
If it is a Landers, Fray and Clark then that is one hard tempered steel razor!

You have been working on the razor for several weeks? Ok, we have done and heard that before. You most likely are now over honed. Overhoned means the edge is to thin. Thus it is weak. When an edge is weak it bends, curls or chips. We refer to this as a wire edge. Other professions call it a burr.
So...
1. Feel the edge of your blade with the pad of your thumb, both sides of the blade. Notice if it feels different at any spot. Remember that spot and how it feels in general.

2. Now perform the thumbnail test. You will probably feel an uneven "draw". remeber any place where the edge catches or skips.

3. Perform 10 back honing strokes on the 4000 grit Norton. This should wear off any wire edge. Then 5 normal strokes. Use 1-2 lbs of pressure.

4. Now do the thumb and thumbnail test again. The edge should feel more even with no catching. If it does not feel even then perform 5 more back honing strokes and 5 normal honing strokes.

5. Perform the two thumb tests again.

6. Now perform a sequence of the following pyramid

4000 hone/8000 hone
5/5 use 1-2 lbs of pressure
4/5 "" ""
3/5 "" ""
3/5 Light pressure
1/5 "
1/5 "
1/5 "

Then strop and shave test. Repeat if necessary starting at the 3/5 level.

Then let us know how it is going.
Contact me on Skype at any time
Send me a PM for my phone # if you want to call

Hope this helps,:)

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Hi Randy....why always vary in the strokes please? A stroke on the 4000, strokes on the 8000 then again on the 4000 and again on the 8000 ....i don't understand. Can it not strokes on the 4000 and than on the 8000 after then the strop and that's all before you shaving? And what if you only a Belgium coticulestone? How many laps need the razor please?
Thx for the help!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jan

Hi Randy....why always vary in the strokes please? A stroke on the 4000, strokes on the 8000 then again on the 4000 and again on the 8000 ....i don't understand. Can it not strokes on the 4000 and than on the 8000 after then the strop and that's all before you shaving? And what if you only a Belgium coticulestone? How many laps need the razor please?
Thx for the help!!

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Randy i mean how many laps need the razor on the Belgium stone please??

I'll sub in for Randy:
As many as it takes to get it shave ready. It depends on what you started with, how much steel there is to remove and how hard it is.

The number of strokes varies because what we are doing is gradually getting closer to a shaving edge. After each set of strokes i.e. 3/5 test with the thumb test to see if the edge is sharp enough. But since you do not have the "feel" for what is sharp enough yet then what you are doing is learning what rate of change is occuring while you are honing. There is nothing that says you have to do all of the sets of laps. You can stop at any time and perform a test shave.

Since there were many kinds of steel used in straight razors and many different heat treatments used we cannot give a precise recommendation of what it will take to obtain a shavung sharp edge.

For the time being just use the Norton 4/8 hone. Do not use the Belgian. This way you will learn what the Norton can do.

However, if all you have to work with is the Belgian and it is a two grit hone then double the number of laps in each set. The Belgian does a fine job but it does cut slowly. Also be sure to use a slurry with both sides of the Belgian.

Let us know how it goes,:)

Where can i buy a Norton stone please? Is he possible buying in Europe??

Thx

Some sellers like classicshaving.com do ship but you'll pay for it through your nose. Wait until you hear from some Euro-members as they may know a cheaper way to get your hands on one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jan

Where can i buy a Norton stone please? Is he possible buying in Europe??

Thx

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Jan, if all you have is a Belgian two grit hone then that will be all you need. It will be slower than the Norton but the edge will be more comfortable and maybe sharper. Again, be sure to use a slurry. If you do not understand the word "slurry" then contact me.

Hope this helps.

Randy I have been rubbing my coticule on my face to build a slurry but it's not working as well as hoped, sure would be nice to have a smaller piece to build this slurry with. :rolleyes:

In UK I found to places you can get norton waterstones from. Though you'll have to check if they deliver to the rest of Europe.

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/NCWS3

http://shop.johnlloydfinefurniture.c...98/af/page.htm

Hope these help.

Steven

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danno

When I bought all my shaving gear, I was under the impression that the 4/8 hone and a strop would get me to shaving sharp, but now I am having my doubts.
I've been working on my dovo, and an older blade I got from Bill Ellis, but then dulled when I stropped it, for several weeks. I can't seem to get past a certain (unsatifactory) level of keeness.
My question to all the honemeisters is this: do you do your honing on just the norton, or do you use other steps like barber's hones, or pasted strops.
I have this thing that "if he can do it so can I." So, I'm having a hard time sending out my razors for honing. Its like admitting defeat.
Like I said, I'm just starting to think that I need more gear. Or maybe I just need more practice.
Thanks, you gentlemen kick butt.
Dan

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My coticule seems to make a big difference for me for getting that fine finish and no-pull shave. I can't claim that it's a must, but my beard hairs are wiry, and nothing else seemed to work for me. I use a Norton 4/8K and a coticule, and a strop (no paste) and that's it.

The best advise I had from this site was: don't overhone. I overhoned constantly when I was learning. It's relatively easy to get a nice sharp razor, just be gentle. And make sure your hones are FLAT.

E

Yeah, that's straight up advice Eric and it's exactly what I find as well. With those tool you can get the job done right.

X