Thread: Is the 4/8 and a strop all I need.

When I bought all my shaving gear, I was under the impression that the 4/8 hone and a strop would get me to shaving sharp, but now I am having my doubts.
I've been working on my dovo, and an older blade I got from Bill Ellis, but then dulled when I stropped it, for several weeks. I can't seem to get past a certain (unsatifactory) level of keeness.
My question to all the honemeisters is this: do you do your honing on just the norton, or do you use other steps like barber's hones, or pasted strops.
I have this thing that "if he can do it so can I." So, I'm having a hard time sending out my razors for honing. Its like admitting defeat.
Like I said, I'm just starting to think that I need more gear. Or maybe I just need more practice.
Thanks, you gentlemen kick butt.
Dan

Its a question I can't answer. A Norton 4/8 is plenty to get a sharp razor but you need to be well practiced to get there. I find the barber hones to be great help so I can recommend them. You can toss them in before 8K or after.

More importantly though the barber hones can be easier for a few reasons. One, they hone slower and two then don't have the gummy effect of an 8K. They don't require as much lapping and they can be held in the hand. Wow, lots or reasons the barber hones are "better".

But, you can compensate for all that very easily and learn how the Norton 4/8 K is superior in its own way and excellent all by itself.

One, make sure its lapped. Two, use the 8K. Smooth out the bevel completely. Use some pressure and get that bevel smooth. Then learn to carefully reduce pressure to less and less in order to get the edge sharp. Finally, with so much power at your finger tips make sure your not overhoning.

Your pioneer independent streak is admirable, but its no shame to send a blade out at all. But it does take some skill and understanding. I personally don't tune up my car or even change the oil, its the same thing but I was adamant like you were. I developed a good understanding of honing in a little less than 2 years, now in my 3rd year I'd say I'm OK and heading into good. I'm a worst case example, but do you have that kind of patience?

If you want to learn to hone, you actually have to learn to hone. Take a class with Randy via skype or get Lynn's DVD and actually put some clear understanding into your honing. Its a skill. Its very hard to learn from reading about it, like reading how to swing a golf club, the words rarely translate into action. For example, a "light touch" on the hone has no absolute value that can translate to you using your hone. Is it more than what your using now, or less? And how does it relate to your honing strokes and the antithisus of using a light touch which is keeping the blade flat? And what about the knowledge base you need to evalutate the blade. It sucks when I here about people honing on the wrong grit, with the wrong pressure level because they have no fundamental idea what there doing or why.

You have a lot to learn, just be patient. In the mean time though get a razor honed by a professional just so you can look at the bevel and see what sharp looks like under a microscope for comparison.

The method your using doesn't translate well from honing table to shave sink. It would be like tuning up a car in your garage and then having to drive it around to see if it drives better. Atleast learn what sharp looks and acts like on the honing table.

A 4/8 blade can be tough to hone, only a 3/8 is harder. Keeping the pressure balance even is the difficulty.
What is the name on your razor? Let us know.
If it is a Landers, Fray and Clark then that is one hard tempered steel razor!

You have been working on the razor for several weeks? Ok, we have done and heard that before. You most likely are now over honed. Overhoned means the edge is to thin. Thus it is weak. When an edge is weak it bends, curls or chips. We refer to this as a wire edge. Other professions call it a burr.
So...
1. Feel the edge of your blade with the pad of your thumb, both sides of the blade. Notice if it feels different at any spot. Remember that spot and how it feels in general.

2. Now perform the thumbnail test. You will probably feel an uneven "draw". remeber any place where the edge catches or skips.

3. Perform 10 back honing strokes on the 4000 grit Norton. This should wear off any wire edge. Then 5 normal strokes. Use 1-2 lbs of pressure.

4. Now do the thumb and thumbnail test again. The edge should feel more even with no catching. If it does not feel even then perform 5 more back honing strokes and 5 normal honing strokes.

5. Perform the two thumb tests again.

6. Now perform a sequence of the following pyramid

4000 hone/8000 hone
5/5 use 1-2 lbs of pressure
4/5 "" ""
3/5 "" ""
3/5 Light pressure
1/5 "
1/5 "
1/5 "

Then strop and shave test. Repeat if necessary starting at the 3/5 level.

Then let us know how it is going.
Contact me on Skype at any time
Send me a PM for my phone # if you want to call

Hope this helps,

Great post Randydance!

Any idea how those honing ratios stack up using a japanese 4K and 8K waterstone instead?

Like danno here, I too can get shave sharp but not honemeister sharp.....

Alan and Randy have given you all the goods here, Dan.

I like to top up my edges with pastes, but that only works well if the foundation achieved on the Norton 4/8 is sound. The HHT after the pyramid is a very telling test for my honing. Everything else is gravy.

X

yea I can't add more to the great advice you have been given. The only thing I would address is the issue of whether the 4/8 is sufficient to produce a great edge for shaving and to me the answer is yes it is. Does that mean it can't be improved upon? Certainly not it can always be improved upon but as a beginner until you master the 4/8 I'd settle for good results with that.

Personally I mainly use the yellow coticule to maintain all my razors at this point. If I'm working on an Eboy special then I fall back to the 4/8. I really don't use barbers hones though I have several I find the small hones difficult to use because of their size and difficult to get consistant results having to hold them in your hand. But thats me. many guys love them and get great results out of them so as your experience increases you can try them all and go with what you prefer.

A 4/8 blade can be tough to hone, only a 3/8 is harder. Keeping the pressure balance even is the difficulty.
What is the name on your razor? Let us know

.
Randy, I am currently working on a 5/8 inox dovo, and a 6/8 morely on a 4000/8000 grit hone.
Regardless, I will give your suggestion a try. I never thought I'd be overhoned when I never got really sharp to begin with, but I'm sure its possible.
If that doesn't work, I think I'll bite the bullet and send them out. What is typical turnaround time for some honing? (My only issue is that I'll be deploying overseas soon, so I don't have a lot of time)
Also, as an aside. . .I had a thought just now: when I got my strop out of the box (its a dovo strop) I didn't do anything to it, just started using it. Now I'm thinking maybe it needs some oil or something. Mink or mineral oil? Could that be a factor?
I'm learning so much from you guys and despite frustration, I'm having fun too.
Dan

Originally Posted by Bobbo

Great post Randydance!

Any idea how those honing ratios stack up using a japanese 4K and 8K waterstone instead?

Like danno here, I too can get shave sharp but not honemeister sharp.....

It really depends on the specific brand of Japanese hone. I would increae the stroke count by 50% or more initially and see what the results are. Be sure to use a slurry with the Japanese stones. They cut much faster that way.

Originally Posted by danno

.
Randy, I am currently working on a 5/8 inox dovo, and a 6/8 morely on a 4000/8000 grit hone.
Regardless, I will give your suggestion a try. I never thought I'd be overhoned when I never got really sharp to begin with, but I'm sure its possible.
If that doesn't work, I think I'll bite the bullet and send them out. What is typical turnaround time for some honing? (My only issue is that I'll be deploying overseas soon, so I don't have a lot of time)
Also, as an aside. . .I had a thought just now: when I got my strop out of the box (its a dovo strop) I didn't do anything to it, just started using it. Now I'm thinking maybe it needs some oil or something. Mink or mineral oil? Could that be a factor?
I'm learning so much from you guys and despite frustration, I'm having fun too.
Dan

If your strop is new then it is good to go, nothing else is needed.

Contact Joe Chandler for honing and let him know the time constraints you are under.
[email protected]

Hope this helps,

Not a honemeister, but rather a guy more or less in your shoes.

My problem with my first blade was this: my first clumsy efforts to hone it from out-of-box sharp to shaving-sharp made the thing dull and uneven. I then fought to bring it back to life, using only the Norton 4k/8k. To my credit, I would sometimes nurse it to a pretty darn close and smooth shave; very satisfying! But after some weeks, it would need a touch-up, and I was as likely as not to ruin it as to freshen it up.

Consistency, then, was my problem. So I sent it (with a second purchase) to Lynn, and now have two wonderfully sharp razors. My first observation: Lynn's results are, along the full length of the blade, what I could manage on much (but never all) of the blade on my best day. This tells me that, given time, practice, and some mentorship, I'll manage the self-sufficiency that I'd like to have. I'll start by trying to maintain the good bevel put on these two babies by Lynn.

Hope this helps!