This is a thread split from the JNat for Dummies thread.
Printable View
This is a thread split from the JNat for Dummies thread.
It is possible to get a razor shave ready off a lower grit. I routinely pop hairs off my Chosera 1K and 2K. If you're bevel is set correctly, and it's not an easy chore sometimes, then you should have good results with a coticule. When I'm working my coticule, I try to keep the slurry pretty then. I have found that a heavy slurry can degrade a good bevel. You have to find that sweet spot where the slurry is a benefit to sharpening, not an interference and dulling your blade.
I've heard by more experienced members here that it is possible. I use a Norton 1/4k before my coticule, and while I can get the razor to cut arm hair with ease, I can do 300 laps on the coticule using the dilucot method, then an additional 50 on water, and still have a pulling sensation after stropping. Perhaps I should try shaving right off the stone? I suppose I'm frustrated because I've been a daily straight razor shaver for a year, not used a disposable since last February, and I'm still having trouble getting a perfectly smooth shave without pastes, right off the stone. I think I brought this subject up in another thread...
have you tried to go to Coticule after 8k?Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
if you are getting the same pulling sensation after higher than 4k grit, then you have very coarse coticule or you need to work on technique to get best edge possible from your particular coticule.
I go to the coticule after the 4k, and use slurry on the coticule, then gradually dilute it until its clear water only. I've done this 100's of times with dozens of razors over the past year. By the finishing stages of the coticule on water, water washes over the top of the blade from heel to toe on both sides, with no pressure on the stone. I take that as an indication that the razor is done on the hones, and I strop 75 each side on leather, light. When I go to shave, I still usually get some "pulling," until i do 5-10 laps on my linen with diamond spray.
I've listened to everybody's advice on this website, and tried it many times. I just can't seem to get a good shave off my coticule without pastes :( I have a fine slate finisher, and 20-30 laps each side after the coticule will give me an effortless shave 50% of the time, but it's hit or miss. I can never seem to get rid of the pastes...
Does it sound like my problem lies in an improperly set bevel? I don't believe it is possible that it is that, but again, I'm no expert, as much as I like to think I know what I'm doing.
Some think that there are coticules that are not capable of imparting the sharpness required for straight razors. I have yet to meet a coticule that fit that description, but there is one way you could find out for sure. Try the unicot method. You can find plenty of information on it, but in short you just add one layer of tape at the end of your honing regimen and do some very weightless water-only strokes (rinse the stone often to remove the chance of autoslurrying affecting your edge). Since the coticule will be contacting only the very edge of the bevel, you'll get a very clear picture of what in fact your coticule is capable of doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
ok two questions can you pop arm hair above skin level on your 1k when your finished on that 1k ? what angle are you using when you shave should be around a 20 degree (1/4 in.)Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
Dave, I am a complete noob who has only honed with a coticule once, but I got a smooth, comfortable shave following pretty much the procedure you described, except I went to the coti straight from the 1k (it was a full restore which needed a new bevel after removal of a frown). I raised a milky slurry and followed the dilucot videos from Bart and Gary. After I got through the dilution of slurry to basically water, I rinsed the stone and razor, did 10 more laps, then rinsed again and did 10 laps with a damp stone (not full water, just a damp stone and the weight of the razor). I could probably have done a few more as I think there's still some smoothness left to be found in this blade, but that worked for me. Anyway, I know it was probably just beginner's luck, but I thought I'd share.
I am also appreciative of the wisdom in this thread related to JNats, as I am poking around reading as much as I can on them in anticipation of adding one to my collection.
Have you tried to shave after the 4k? Is it about the same as after the coticule? I'm thinking it's your coticule and not the bevel.
Does your slurry get dark on the coticule? Is the blade tending to stick when you get towards all water? You may have to play with slurry amounts.
How many razors are you shaving with? If more than one, do they all pull?
When I brought up my troubles the first time, I went to coticule.be and followed the unitcot method to the "T". I still needed to use a pasted strop to get a shave that didn't pull at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo7
Off a 1K norton I can cut hair at skin level on my arm easily. At 4K, I might be able to raise the blade off my skin a MM or two and still clip some hairs off. By the time I finish on my coticule, I can do the same, above skin hair shearing, only a bit better than off the 4K. I shave with an angle around 20 degrees, but sometimes I use a steeper angle under my nose and around my chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by eleblu05
I have been advised to try shaving off the 4k, but alas, I have not done so - yet. I hate to blame the coticule, as I obtained a very similar level of final sharpness of a kitayama (8k-12k) hone prior to purchasing the coticule. I just can't seem to get that final "edge" that I need. Back to your questions, the slurry will get darker, but not dark. On hollow grind blades, the blade will "stick" when on the coticule with just water. I have about 10 razors currently in my rotation. I have only 2 that I can shave with right off the hone. One is an 11/8 WM Jackson hollow grind, one is a joseph rodgers 8/8 wedge. The rest always require paste. that includes a new dovo and a dubl duck. Most of the rest of the blades are some grind of wedge.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybyers
Ok good work, that's interesting. Next idea: you could try rubbing some bar soap on the coticule, wetting it, and doing X strokes with as little pressure as you can muster. I've found that this can add some keenness if it's lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
The good thing about the coticule is that smoothness is pretty much a given, you just need to try to squeeze out every bit of keenness you can from your stone. I think experimentation is about the only way to figure out what works, and I wish you luck with that!
Thanks Jimbo, I'm about at the point where I need to rub bar soap on my coticule and do a HHT rain dance around it in my underwear with C.O. Bigelow shaving cream in my hair :aargh:
I wasn't going to tell you to do that, because discovering the answer is more important than just being told the answer. I'm glad you figured it out by yourself!Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
I do not think you would gain anything from shaving off 4k, but again have you tried to go to coticule after 8k synthetic? From your description of how the slurry darkens it is possible you have a slow coticule and going to it off higher grit might solve your problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
woodsmandave, if you have that much trouble with a coti, I strongly suggest you buy a Norton 4/8k, it will make life so much easier... :)
i have three different 1k stone's and can get the razor to pop hair above skin level on any of them. i think your problem is at bevel setting. i also have 4 different coti's, an i have used them all as finishers without any of them pulling. go back to the bevel setting and dont leave that stone until you can pop arm hair above skin level.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by eleblu05
I always make sure the blade pops hair above skin level before moving on from 1k.
This makes perfect sense to me. Since I am short a 8k synthetic, I may try instead spending more time on slurry with the coticule.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Buying a Norton 4/8k would be taking the easy way out. I like a challenge. I'm fighting the good fight :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleblu05
I'm going to have to try this on a junker razor. IMO, I can hone a razor down to a nub on my 1k norton and never pop arm hair well above skin level. Sometimes I worry that I spend too much time on the stones. But if this is the source of all my problems, it's worth a shot!
Some people cannot use any "Hair" tests well, try the older tests too, use the TNT off the 1k, then watch Lynn's JaNorton video and watch and listen to his TPT it is about as perfect as it gets...
We all thought the Arm hair test was awesome right up until the 2009 NC meet up when we found a guy that could not get his arm hair to cut right even with a shave ready edge when all the rest of us could...
You can shave much better than you think with a well set 1k bevel, by 4k you should be "shaving sharp" and by 8k you should be "shave ready" (grit rating for equivalency only)
that guys arm hair must have been made of steel, lol! I'll check out that video again, thank you.
I guess I always dismissed my bevel as the problem, because after an 8k stone or coticule, I DO get every blade to shave smoothly, it just takes 5-10 swipes on diamond spray on linen to do the trick. I figured my problem lied elsewhere...
Actually, my arm hair is pretty fine, so I tend to have a bit less clear "off the skin" edge test result. The stiffer arm hair would stay put a little better and maybe give a more definitive result.
For the record, did the guy at the 2009 NC have incredibly thin/light/white arm hair, or thick black greek arm hair? In other words, what type of arm hair is likely to be easier to cut?
This is a great thread for me, since i am experiencing similar coti woes. I am currently going with the 6 day plan from the coticule.be forum and taking the patient route. I have no other hones, so I understand I am in for a battle of a learning curve. That said, like the guy who started this thread, I have been straight shaving for a year now (with professionally honed blades) so I at least understand very well what shave ready is and isn't. Also, I am only using one of my razors for this honing effort, so I am not forced to shave with it. And one final bonus, since my blades are all in good shape, it's not like I am attempting the mystical de-ebaying on a coticule alone. While I am certainly struggling, I think these are key issues that should dramatically shorten my learning process. I cannot imagine trying this from scratch as a complete beginner to straight shaving.
I'm not familiar with the particulars of that instance, but I'm fairly sure that thicker/coarser hair is going to be easier for the blade to "catch". My leg hair is thicker than my arm hair, and a blade will catch it well before it's sharp enough to do the same on my arm. (Talking about the above-the-skin test.)Quote:
Originally Posted by UWPete
how many razor's are you honing ? and what kind are they ?Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
I have fine hair and i cant cut hair above skin level. I have to use my daughters hair. Nice thick hair.
In my rotation:Quote:
Originally Posted by eleblu05
Joseph Rodgers wedge
WM Jackson 11/8 hollow
2 W&B wedges
dovo and dubl duck full hollow
wostenholm 4/8 and 7/8 wedges
wm greaves 7/8 wedge
john barber 7/8 half wedge
For me, the wedges are easier to hone than the full hollows. A couple - the 11/8 and the wostenholm 7/8, never need the diamond paste. the rest always do
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
LOL thank god I thought I was the only one! I have had 4 blades honed by Lynn that shave amazingly, but wont pop hair above skin level. None of the razors that I have honed popped hair above skin level either but shave very well. I rely Heavily on the TNT and TPT when honing and thought maybe I just wasnt doing the HHT and arm hair tests right (even after seeing others do it right in front of me and watching all the video's I could find). Good to know! thanks Glen :)
All my blades take off arm hair no problem, and shave well, but exhibit different results with the HHT , I don't rely on the HHT as any kind of indicator that a blade is shave ready, but more of a before and after comparison when stropping, I use SWMBO's hair from her brush as it's long and there's loads of it, sometimes the blade won't pop the hair at all, sometimes it pops with a 'zing' especially with an extra hollow, sometimes I get a silent pop, all the razors are finished on the same grit hone and I do my best to strop with the same round trips and pressure on linen and leather, I am beginning to think it's the hair that's the variable not the razors.
Seems it's not coticules for dummies anymore. We're no good at staying on topic I think... lol
So, to bring it back to coticules, I just "learned" mine last night.
For the past year, with coticules and otherwise, when honing, I would sit at a desk with the hone on the table, and use a modified two handed approach to honing. For some reason, while my razors got "nearly" shave ready (I'd always need 5-10 laps on diamond sprayed linen strop before I could shave comfortably) I could never shave right after honing and stropping on plain leather. This pissed me off like you wouldn't believe, and I've had many conversations on this forum trying to figure out what the issue was.
Well, I think I know now-I think that, even when I was VERY careful to not add pressure to the razor, I must have, or the pressure must have been biased toward the spine.
Whatever it was, the minute I stood up, lazily used one hand to hold the razor as I've seen glen do in his videos, used a "flip" similar to stropping, something changed. Immediately, a noticable change in the behavior and feel of the razor on the rock was evident. I felt like I knew what stage the edge was in much better than before. And lo and behold, 3 razors later, all shaving beautifully right after stropping, I am a proud, happy man :cool: On to the next stage of my training....JNats!
I kinda thought that the pressure could be the issue here as you said that you can get your wedges to shave ready of the stone. Wedges dont bend as easily as hollow grinds. With the two hands method you are ever so slightly bending the edge of the edge up from the stone surface and not getting the final finish. Good thing that you figured this one out!Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsmandave
You really have no idea how happy I am about this new discovery. I mean, I'm good with my hands--I can tie flies, carve wood, etc...so when I feel I'm using light/no pressure on the razor, I'm confident I'm not putting pressure. (ps I said I could get '2' wedges shave ready without diamond spray - but one isn't really a wedge, just an 11/8)Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoK
Anyway, by using one hand instead of two standing up, all of a sudden I could feel more feedback from the razor...i could feel it being "grippy" and not smoothy going over the stone...you know, the point when the two edges of the bevel meet and are catching on the stone, indicating that you're done with that particular stone and need a finer grit...that feeling was never as pronounced, hardly noticable actuually, when I was sitting down and directing the blade with two hands--one directing various areas of the spine with a finger, and one holding the razor. I just can't believe it took me a whole year of weekly honing to figure this one out.
The only problem is, at least for me, that when the edge profile is a smile or maybe a slight warp, the one-handed strokes become really demanding. I find it is nearly impossible to maintain good edge contact all the way to the toe without the help of the other hand. And yes, I am a noobie, but never-the-less it is very difficult.
Thank you WoodsmanDave, you saved me a year. I tried the two hand method a couple of times and then moved on to one hand after that with better results.
I am having the same issue MikkoK. I watch the water/wave run through the first part of the blade, and then getting it to go all the way to the toe is extremely difficult. The result is an uneven bevel and a lame shave. This is going to take a lot of practice.