Problems for a beginning honer

I've been spending a lot of time the past couple weeks trying different techniques that I have read about to get my Dovo Best Quality 5/8 razor back to shave ready condition, but I cannot seem to get a comfortable shave and it has become frustrating. Any help on where I went wrong would be great. Here is my honing story.

I went about 5 months without sharpening after receiving my razor professionally honed so I figured I would start on the 4k side of my Norton (freshly lapped on a DMT d8c).

After practicing honing everyday for a week on an old, non used razor from my grandpa. After I felt I had the technique down I went to my Dovo. After 10 laps on the 4k, my edge seemed to become even duller. I did 10 more laps with not much improvement and decided to finish on the 8k, strop and shave, but it would hardly cut hairs.

I spent a fair amount of time on the 4k the next day just doing x strokes and after at least 100 laps (checking sharpness tests along the way), the edge only felt marginally sharp in one small spot. I decided to see if that would shave any better and again honed on the 8k, stropped, and shaved. Again it was uncomfortable and did not cut well.

I posted on B&B that I needed help, and I had some quick and great responses. Here is the thread http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...for-a-beginner

I tried half strokes, circles, circles with slurry, pressure, no pressure, killing the edge and starting from scratch, pyramids, ect. Nothing was getting me a sharp edge and the 4k still seemed to make the edge duller!

I then decided to take the blade to my dad's japanese synthetic 800 grit stone that he used for chisels, thinking that my bevel was not set correctly. I spent a fair amount of time there and my bevel greatly improved. The TNT at that level passed and so did the marker test. Also, at this time, I was getting an even, consistent stroke.

I took my razor then to my Norton 4k and after checking every 10 laps, my blade seemed to dull (although not as bad as before) and get only marginally shaper after many more laps. I did a pyramid, stropped, and shaved. The shave was much closer, although it was still uncomfortable and not as close as I know it should be.

I have spent a couple more days trying different ways to get my razor sharp and it has not gotten much better. I am at the point where I can get a relatively close shave, but there is tugging, pulling, and discomfort.

Any help would be fantastic. Thank you.

Mat

you might try stroping the snot out of that razor at this point, 150 or so laps with very light presure all in the x pattern. try make every lap the same, start in the same place and finish in the same place. then shave ,if the shave is still lacking try stroping on newspaper 50 or so laps and then leather.keep at it, go back to the stone (8000) if need be and strop.
hope this helps

I think one of the problems and this is common with new folks is that you are trying everything out there and there is a lot of information out there. The most important things in my opinion for the new guy are to learn to get to no pressure and to keep the blade flat on the stone. This takes a little practice. I would recommend just picking one method, like the pyramid or the circles or the X strokes and just work with that one until you get a razor shaving nicely. It sounds like you are close now off the 8K Norton, so trying to dial in would be good. Try just a 1-3, 1-5 pyramid on the 4K/8K then strop and test or try 3-5 X strokes with no pressure on the 8K, then strop and test. It may take a couple tries, but if it's close now, it should get a little better. Try not to do too much honing at one setting as that will make it less frustrating.

Keep us posted.

Have fun.

Did you do the magic marker test? It will show you if/where your blade is contacting the hone, and will give you a good indication of what type of honing stroke to use.

I read the thread from B&B and it's kind of unsettling how many people told you to reset the bevel. Since your razor came pro honed there was already an established bevel, and your razor likely only required a refresh (aka touch up). Resetting a bevel is pretty extreme, even going down to the 4k level was probably overkill. Next time start off on your highest grit hone and work your way down from there.

Since you got your razor close you can do another small pyramid or two and see if it helps. Or you can stay on the 4k until it shaves hairs effortlessly; move to the 8k and do zero pressure laps, checking after every 10 laps or so. When there is some improvement try a test shave and go from there. If you do have a hone with a higher grit than 8k I would strongly recommend staying on the 8k until you can achieve a comfortable shave.

Other than that, are you using tape on the spine? There is a possibility that whoever honed it originally used tape.

Edit: Looks like Lynn beat me to it... :)

Yea, really just to repeat what was said another way, less is more in honing and other things. Start with the highest grit hone and see what happens. You might have just needed a minor touch up to begin with and you over did it. You can always fall back to a lower grit but once you start low then you have to progress up the line again and subject your razor to more wear.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I think one of the problems and this is common with new folks is that you are trying everything out there and there is a lot of information out there. The most important things in my opinion for the new guy are to learn to get to no pressure and to keep the blade flat on the stone. This takes a little practice. I would recommend just picking one method, like the pyramid or the circles or the X strokes and just work with that one until you get a razor shaving nicely. It sounds like you are close now off the 8K Norton, so trying to dial in would be good. Try just a 1-3, 1-5 pyramid on the 4K/8K then strop and test or try 3-5 X strokes with no pressure on the 8K, then strop and test. It may take a couple tries, but if it's close now, it should get a little better. Try not to do too much honing at one setting as that will make it less frustrating.

Keep us posted.

Have fun.

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+1
Tell me how you have lapped your Norton hones.
A new Norton often needs to have a bit of work to remove
the "rind". About 1/32" not a lot but enough. Coarse
3M wet dry on a flat tile or cutting board under running water
will do. Do test both sides for flat in the same way.

The pyramid method is as good starting method.

I honed my first razor last night using the Norton 4k/8k and it worked out well for me. You definitely need to lap the stone flat before using it, though. Mine was ridiculously rough on both sides, but they smoothed out nicely using only the DMT D8C.

If you haven't checked out the videos on YouTube, you really should. Go to YouTube and search "janorton". Find the video by SharpSRP and watch that. I followed a pattern nearly identical to what he did and my razor is almost too sharp for me and my beginner straight shaving skills to handle.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Did you do the magic marker test? It will show you if/where your blade is contacting the hone, and will give you a good indication of what type of honing stroke to use.

Other than that, are you using tape on the spine? There is a possibility that whoever honed it originally used tape.

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I did use the magic marker test and it showed I had an even stroke.

I decided to not tape the spine. I bought my razor from Classic Shaving so I am not sure what they do, but I am positive I am past any of their honing with the amount of work I have put into the razor.

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Tell me how you have lapped your Norton hones.

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DMT D8C. I spent about an hour on each side! It was in pretty rough shape from the factory I guess and the 8k still need more, but just on the corner which I have learned to avoid.

Thanks so much for the help every one. I tried some of your guys' advice and it worked. I just shaved (evening shaver here) and it was the best yet. I am still experiencing some tugging, but no where near where it was before and overall the blade feels much sharper. I'll let you guys know how my progress goes. Thanks again.

Do all new hones need to be lapped?

Yes, all hones need to be lapped. Some people even work on their DMTs before using them.

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Originally Posted by SixNipples

Do all new hones need to be lapped?

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No not all but many.

There are two issues: flatness and a manufacturing rind.

Flatness is easy to check. Draw a grid on the hone with
a #2 pencil and lap half a sheet of paper thickness off. The grid should
vanish or almost vanish. Flatness is most important when
changing grits. Those with a single finisher/ maintainer can
be casual about flatness and go old school honing on the
high spots to even out the wear.

The rind is more interesting and depends on how the hone
was made. Since making hones is often a trade secret I am
guessing... I believe that a binder and abrasive are mixed and
then packed into a mold. Time, air, heat and light are used to
cure the binder and in some cases a rind can forms perhaps as
a reaction with a release agent or perhaps just a surface effect.
Lapping that surface rind should not take a long time under running
water with a DMT and only needs to be done once. No need to
remove a lot of hone... It is too easy to get OCD and wash a
lot of hone down the drain. Thickness of a dime, one time, should get
the job done, often less.

After that one time lap only for a light slurry or to keep the hone
flat... think half a sheet of paper in terms of thickness.

I'm happy to report that each shave is getting better and better. I have been doing short honing sessions and following some of your tips. Thanks everyone.

I'm going to venture to say that you really aren't getting good shaves yet (just a hunch) but that you don't want to seem bothersome, so I'm going to give you further advice:

1: If your norton is new, take off a FULL 1/8" off the top with a lapping stone or sandpaper, no matter how smooth you think it is.
2. Stay on the 4k until you can cut wet arm hairs easily. You will need a little bit of pressure on each side until this happens. Once it happens, do 50 more "weightless" strokes before going to your 8k with slurry.
3. Every ten strokes on the 8k, put 5 drops of water on the hone, and clean the slurry off the razor.
4. when you eventually get to water only on the 8k, do thirty more weightless strokes.
5. use one hand to hold your razor while honing

Not to be defensive, but I am actually getting good shaves. I have been straight razor shaving for 5 months now and am getting the best shaves yet (now that I have better shaving technique). I know there is room for improvement on the Norton, but overall I am happy with my honing results.

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Originally Posted by mgrewe

Not to be defensive, but I am actually getting good shaves. I have been straight razor shaving for 5 months now and am getting the best shaves yet (now that I have better shaving technique). I know there is room for improvement on the Norton, but overall I am happy with my honing results.

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Sounds like you're on the right track. With a constant method, honing will keep getting better. Eventually that plateaus, and then you start playing with all the fancy stuff... where you're at is fun, you get to experience such noticeable progress every shave! Keep at it, and you'll be an old pro before you know it...

You might also try stropping on newspaper after the stone, before the leather. I used that technique earlier and I'm quite happy with the results. Nice smooth shave, no irritation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by myersn024

You might also try stropping on newspaper after the stone, before the leather. I used that technique earlier and I'm quite happy with the results. Nice smooth shave, no irritation.

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I read about the newspaper trick and was going to try it after I get consistently great shaves off the 8k. By the way, what do you put the newspaper on when stropping?

I wrapped the newspaper around a balsa plank and used that and it worked like a charm. You can put it on anything as long as it's flat. If the surface is hard, like a counter top or glass, you might want to use two layers of paper. On the balsa, one layer of paper was all I used. I did 200 laps on the newspaper after the 8k, then 150 laps on leather. The 150 on leather was probably a little over kill, but the shave was super smooth so I must have done something right. From my limited experience, I've realized that this honing stuff can be tricky, but it isn't the black magic that it sometimes seems to be.

Awesome thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mgrewe

I read about the newspaper trick and was going to try it after I get consistently great shaves off the 8k. By the way, what do you put the newspaper on when stropping?

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The thing is, you personally might NEED newspaper, or Chromium oxide, or diamond spray to get great shaves after the 8k. I've been doing this a year, and only recently have I been able to go straight from a coticule to a strop and get a great shave...MOST of the time. Sometimes I still need that extra help (diamond spray) to get the edge dialed in to shave readiness.

When I was newer to honing I believed I needed paste.

But now that I have been doing this awhile I find that paste can be nice, but but the 8K is a fine edge.

Which is why I advocate not messing with pastes and other finishers until you master whatever stone you use... Once you learn to maximize your 8K edge, and you will find your pasted edges are even better.

Agreed that you should be able to get a perfectly fine shaving edge off an 8k. But, if anybody just starting to hone their own razors has anything like my learning curve, it might take months (or for me, nearly a year) to really dial in an 8k edge to "shaving sharp." They might only be able to get edges that slightly pull, or pull more than slightly. Pastes make up for that lack of ability for a new learner. Pastes might keep a person in the hobby when lack of them might discourage them, having only the ability to attain an uncomfortable shave otherwise.

Im a beginning shaver, and honer as well. I'm only on my 7th shave. Needless to say, both my honing and shaving technique require work and experience. That said, I have gotten (recently) good shaves by dropping the spine against my face to the recommended one spine width. I've also managed to put a good edge on two razors (one from ebay, one that I inherited and had been neglected for decades - both on good condition but in need of bevel resets). I have always sharpened my own knives freehand, and I guess I find myself in the unique position of being more comfortable with honing than with shaving at this point. Not that I am an expert honer, but I do feel confident about getting a good smooth edge that can pass HHT all along the edge, whereas I am much less confident in my shaving skill.

I ran into the problem with not being able to get a good consistent edge from the 8k side as well. I do hope and intend to continue practicing until I can maximize this tool, but in the meantime, I see no good reason not to use other available tools to get me where I need to be - if only so I know that my occasional nicks come from bad technique, not a dull blade. I bought some 1 micron and 0.3 micron 3m PSA backed film and affixed them to glass blanks to stand in until I can afford a real finishing hone. I have been really happy with the ease that they have been able to take my 8k edge from marginal to passing the HHT test consistently. I also use chromium oxide on balsa to smooth everything out, and I feel that makes a huge difference in passing the HHT.

I guess, I feel that ideally, my razors would be able to pass the HHT straight off the 8k, but I seem to have noticed such a remarkable difference after using the finishing film and Crox compared to just the 8k, that I can't see why I would ever not use them.

One thing I did notice, on my first norton honed razor, I think I used too much pressure. It was a thin hollow ground razor, and I think this excess pressure ended up flexing the blade, and actually setting the bevel angle a little lower than what would naturally result from being totally flat with the spine. I didn't get a shave ready edge here, but after much frustration, I decided to move to the film. On the glass, I managed to keep much lighter pressure, and when I examining the edge under magnification, I noticed that the leading edge was polished, but the trailing edge of the bevel still retained the scratches from the 8k hone. almost like a microbevel using tape. Obviously not the best way to do things, but the end result was a very shavable edge. Wondering if anyone else has noticed this behavior when honing, and also wondering if inconsistent pressure could be the source of this posters issues, as well as my continued lack of success with the 8k?

Javast,

I would send a razor out or try to pick up a shave ready one on the cheaper end of the spectrum so you have something to compare to.

A little bit of pressure is not bad when doing a bevel set, but not knife honing pressure. I suck at knife sharpening, so I am not really sure how to describe it.

knowing how to sharpen a knife wont help much when it comes to razors might even take you longer to frist unlearn what you know abought knife sharpening.i have been putting edges on steel for 50 years plus, but razors now thats a whole new kettle of fish.the best way to think abought pressure i have found is that when setting the bevel, tork that blade with as much pressure as you would use to hold down a fly , not kill it but make it feel uncomfortable

I started out with a cheapo vintage (ugly, but servicable) from whipped dog. It was sharp and got me through my first two shaves before i decided to fix up my other two razors. Compared to the professionally honed version, my efforts have so far been comparable. My more recent shaves with my self honed razors have actually been better, but I attribute that to getting better at shaving, not sharpness. There is definitely a reason most threads in this forum suggest getting a pro to do your first razor - I can definitely see how having to learn honing and shaving at the same time makes it a challenge to know what is going wrong.

Like I saw, the razor honing thing is far from perfect, but I have actually been getting decent results, as compared to my professionally honed standard, which I feel pretty lucky about.

Thanks for the advice about the fly - it's really hard to describe in words, and that is just about the most descriptive phrase I have seen. I was definitely using a fair bit more pressure for bevel setting, so I will back off in the future.

Should I be seeing such a dramatic improvement in sharpness going from the 8k to the 1 micron film and balsa strop? Everyone here says the HHT should pass straight off the 8k - I'm definitely not there yet...

as long as you are getting good shaves dont be too concerned with the hht. i use it too but after honing 60 or so razors i have a good feel for when a razor is going to perform.with the balsa strop its not going to get sharper but smoother, that is easyer on your skin. sharp happens when you set the bevel from there you are looking for smooth, polish. i have a lot of finish hones to play with and when its shaving to my likeing off the hone. i strop on leather treated with Linde A, a lapidary polish 1/3 micron . after that the razor slides thru hairs with 0 resistance.mostly thou its the work you do on your bevel setter thats going to make or break your shave. it should shave your arm hair and pull and the cut some of the hair if you hold it 1/8 " off your arm . off the 8000 it should top your arm hair with little pulling. after that nothing more is needed, strop and shave. i use higher grit stones because i have them, same with the linde A. but just lately i shaved with my frist razor that was honed thru trial and err on arkansas hard and hard black stones and the shave was very good, a bit harsh but good shave.

I know you said not to worry too much about the HHT, but I do have one further question about it. Since I have been getting the HHT to pass extremely well off the strop, but inconsistently off the hone, and stropping does not sharpen the blade, does that mean that my razors could conceivably be shave ready off the hone - even without passing the HHT? I haven't tried yet, and have been reluctant to out of concern for my face...

only shaving will tell its the only test.but yes start with the aera under your sideburn if all gos well continue.if the razors skipping around or feels wrong STOP and strop.after honeing i give the razor a good 100 laps on the strop the frist 30 or so with the strop tight(maybe 5 lbs.) and a little presure,(fly killing) then ease up on the tention on the strop(1 lbs.) and presure.(fly traping) stroping helps keep a sharp blade sharp and smooth (confort) my normal stroping after that is 15 on linen and 30 on leather.

Cool, I will try going from the 8k directly to leather using your advice next time I have occasion to touch up one of my razors and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Javast

I know you said not to worry too much about the HHT, but I do have one further question about it. Since I have been getting the HHT to pass extremely well off the strop, but inconsistently off the hone, and stropping does not sharpen the blade, does that mean that my razors could conceivably be shave ready off the hone - even without passing the HHT? I haven't tried yet, and have been reluctant to out of concern for my face...

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Passing the HHT off the strop is a good thing, but failing the HHT is
not a bad thing. The only test that matters is the shave test.

My guess is that the hair that you are hanging to test with responds to
a stropped edge. A strop will improve the edge beyond what
a hone can do but a strop cannot replace a hone. Pasted strops
act both ways making it too easy to get into a tangle of words.

I consider my last hone step as leaving the edge "strop ready" not
shave ready.

One of the things a strop can do is leave an ultra
thin layer of strop dressing on the fine edge and protect that edge
from corrosion. So I always strop. I can make a mental image
that this micro layer of polymerized natural oil from the leather
acts like the micro thin layer of teflon that helps modern commercial
blades. A lot like the seasoning of a black iron pan helps a cook.
There are many more things that a strop does to perfect the
edge as stropping with newsprint demonstrates. The thin fine
nature of the edge challenges science and invites the type
of speculation trap I just let myself trip over.

All I really know is that a strop works.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I think one of the problems and this is common with new folks is that you are trying everything out there and there is a lot of information out there. The most important things in my opinion for the new guy are to learn to get to no pressure and to keep the blade flat on the stone. This takes a little practice. I would recommend just picking one method, like the pyramid or the circles or the X strokes and just work with that one until you get a razor shaving nicely. It sounds like you are close now off the 8K Norton, so trying to dial in would be good. Try just a 1-3, 1-5 pyramid on the 4K/8K then strop and test or try 3-5 X strokes with no pressure on the 8K, then strop and test. It may take a couple tries, but if it's close now, it should get a little better. Try not to do too much honing at one setting as that will make it less frustrating..

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Such a great advice that I decided to quote all of it.
I got a razor as X-mas present. Cool and scary at the same time. It was supposed to be sharp, but when I found out about the HHTs etc. I came to conclusion that mine is nowhere near sharp. So off to get some hones and spend the waiting time with getting all information there is about honing.
Got myself Naniwa 5K and 3/8K combo to start with. Fortunately for me, there was JaNorton! I got lot of good information and saw nice videos on honing.

Finally I got my stones and.... Darn, honing is not as easy as it looks from the clips! Glenn etc. make honing look so easy: boom sharp razor in no time!
I learned that the hardest part is to move the razor evenly and with little or no pressure. Then there were all the different patterns! After more than 2 hours or honing with medicore results, I gave up. Luckily I came across this message from Lynn and decided that I'd stick with simple pyramid method, with just one or two different strokes. Just that I can't get my razor sharp. I can't cut arm hair from mid air nor can I cut arm hair normally with little effort. The razor is not sharp enough for me to try shaving whiskers, so I've just practiced with cheeck and chin.
I find it depressing to read comments like Ryan82:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Or you can stay on 4k until it shaves hairs effortlessly.

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4K! Is that even possible? I don't get to the effortless stage with hour+ of careful honing.

Recently I've been doing 5k/8k pyramid with the assumption that it will eventually get sharp if I'm patient enough to hone the razor.
There must be some major problem with my honing method that is preventing me reaching the desired sharpness.
I did a small recording and I'dd appreciate if anyone of you can comment on my honing technique.



Here is a cropped image of my blade, taken with 50mm using 68mm worth of extension tubes. I've adjusted the contrast and colours to make the scratches more visible. IMO, the blade looks good, at least from that point.
Attachment 88895
This blade hasn't been stropped yet, but in general I strop, 100+100 (linen/leather). My technique is still somewhat off as I did manage to cut into my strop just recently (Now that kills the edge big time..) :).


http://vimeo.com/36015071