Help Honing Near Wedge Please

I received a very nice De Pews razor the other day and have been trying to hone it over the last couple of nights. The razor is a small near wedge; I do understand that there are very few razors that are a true wedge. I also understand that being quite an old razor it may have a different quality or type of steel than my newer razors. Now, I’m no honemeister, but I have been able to keep my other razors in tip top shape over the last 8 months. The other razors are mainly 4/5 and 5/8 ¾ or full hollows. One is a Swedish steel razor. I have a Norton 4/8 and a Shapton 16k. I took part in JaNorton with two razors that I dulled and was able to bring them to shave ready with no problems, and keep them that way for the month using just the Norton 4/8. The other piece of equipment I have is a simple magnifying glass. I have no loupe or microscope. I use tape on the spine (1 later) and I use a texta (magic marker) on the edge. I test via the TNT, shaving leg hair and TPT; I don’t use the HHT.

So, first time I tried to hone this (40 circles 4k, two aggressive pyramids, 20 laps Shapton 16k) the resulting shave was very poor. Last night I spent 2 and a half hours honing it. I noted that the texta was not being removed from the toe (it has quite a spiky French point) so I kept doing circles and also x strokes until ALL traces of texta were removed. I thought that this would give an even bevel. After umpteen circles and laps I was happy with the evenness of the bevel; though it was very wide, much wider than my other razors. I carried out the TNT test wasn’t happy. So did it all again. I did the TNT again and this time was happy. I then did 20x4, 15x8, 15x4, 15x8, 10x4, 15x8, 5x4, 15x8, followed by 20 on the Shapton. I then stropped 30/70. This morning’s shave sucked. The razor is blunt. I have stubble all over my face. I suspect I didn’t set the bevel correctly.

I know this is a BIG question, but what am I doing wrong? As I said, I have no problem honing my other razors, I always knew this one, being a near wedge, would be harder, but 2 and a ½ hours with no real result tells me I’m doing something wrong.

Sorry for the long post…

I had a similar experience recently that lasted several weeks before I asked for help. At least you're smart enough to ask quickly. :) Add more tape. You could try just one, but I'd just go ahead and throw three layers on that bad boy and call it a day. Hope this helps.

To make it a little easier on yourself you'll have to take and tape the spine and use at least a 1000k to set the bevel. Still is time consuming, but man there's alot of steel to remove on a wedge and for me a 4000k is too slow to set the bevel.

There's a s-sheet on another site you can use to calculate the # of pieces of electrical tape you can use to figure out the angle. Glen or Lynn can really give you expert advice on honing one.

Probably have to hone with the blade at a 45 deg angle to the hone to keep the bevel small. Don't raise the spine 45deg but angle the heel 45 deg in front of the toe on the hone. If I'm incorrect on this feel free to say so. I think glens got a video on youtube where he's honing a wedge. It's under gssixgun, worth taking a peek.

Don't ask me how I know, ok I'll tell ya anyways, I tried setting the bevel on a perfect wedge with three layers using straight strokes, circles and x-strokes, bad move on my part and not paying attention, the bevel was wide and disgusting. So don't feel bad. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do with it. Might end up regrinding it, but that's another day.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but I know your frustration, there's alot of metal to remove and if the blade is out of wack, now you've got more things to compound the frustration level. That's where honing experience comes into play.

My best advice, is pay attention to what the blades doing and what strokes you can use to counter act any problems. If you get frustrated put it down for awhile and clear your head. If you try to rush it, you'll end up with problems like I had.

When you sort it out, please post how you did it, I might learn something new too.

Thanks for the replies, guys. I considered using several layers of tape to create a second bevel. The edge is wide now already, as stated. I guess if I continued with one layer of tape I'd get there eventually. The width of the edge doesn't really worry me that much. I might look up honing a wedge, multiple tape layers, etc. Hopefully Lyne of Gssixgun will notice the post and give some good advice too. I think the blade could be out of wack, I think maybe I should have asked if it were honed previously with tape and if so how many layers. I must say that it's a really nice razor in really nice condition, and there's certainly nothing wrong with IT, just my ability (or lack thereof) :-)

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I suspect I didn’t set the bevel correctly.

I know this is a BIG question, but what am I doing wrong? As I said, I have no problem honing my other razors, I always knew this one, being a near wedge, would be harder, but 2 and a ½ hours with no real result tells me I’m doing something wrong.

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Carl , I think you've partly answered the question in the first sentence above.
Even if the marker test shows clean, that does not mean the bevel is formed, only that bevel contact with the stone is good. The thing with wedgey grinds is that they have almost always suffered bad honing &/or convexed edges. You may need more time on that 4k. Now that you seem close I would drop the TNT & aim for a good pass on the leg or arm hair test before proceeding.

I would take a look under the scope or loupe. Sometimes when I get a rough one like this and it doesn't hit on the first try, I check out the bevel and more times than not, I actually find that there are 2 or more bevels and I need to do more circles to get it down to one nice consistent bevel across the entire blade. The marker test will not show this, but the scope will.

Have fun.

Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I haven't actually seen any descriptions of using the marker, so I just sort of painted the edge about 2 mils thickness. The edge did seem odd when i looked at it closely, i.e. not a single clean edge, but a 'combination' of two edges sort of intermelding; it's hard to explain. So you reckon just keep going with the 4, no extra tape?

Carl, you've just described what Lynn said & what we commonly see on wedges . Several bevels from honing attempts by several people ... or just one person's several attempts :p

Personally I'd be on a 1 k or lower with kickstarting wedges but be patient & keep at it with the 4k if that's all you have. It's possible you will need to lap the hone a bit if the bevel is really bad.
I just did a wedge recently that 2 people had had a go at. The bevels were large & were a partial guide in achieving a good single bevel but for me a loupe is indispensable. I think I started with 3 layers of tape & stayed there but you have to take each blade on it's merits. I don't use tape as a rule.

I'd be interested to see what you end up deciding on, and the result. Please keep us updated. :)

Hi again everybody,
Thanks Lynn and Oz. I posted the reply to Oz, Lynn, and I think your reply was posted as I was typing the other reply! Yeah, does sound like it has several bevels if my description matches that; there is almost an 's' line or shape on the edge. I don't have a 1k hone, nor a loupe nor a microscope, so I guess it's a matter of settling down to more time on the 4k. I'll lap the hone too, as I think there may be a small buildup of metal and tape on the surface, though I am using the Nagura cleanign stone.

Thanks for all the help. I'll report back, so guys like regularjoe may get some ideas...

I thought I'd report back on how it went. There's some really important stuff in a couple of the replies above. Lynn seems to sum things up in just a few words. He said "...I actually find that there are 2 or more bevels and I need to do more circles to get it down to one nice consistent bevel across the entire blade..." and onimaru55 said "...Personally I'd be on a 1 k or lower with kickstarting wedges but be patient & keep at it with the 4k if that's all you have..."

Well, 2 or more bevels? More like 4 or 5 I had from what I could see when I looked really closely. The texta (magic marker) was actually hiding some of what I saw when I DIDN'T use the texta. Maybe I'll draw a diagram later to describe the problems. Onimara55 was also right when he talked about popping hairs before proceeding; I was too wrapped up in pyramids. In regard to 1k or lower, I didn't have one. I spent maybe 2.5 hours doing circles, laps, etc. I got a bit bored with that and decided I needed a 1k hone. I can't afford one so wrapped some 1600 wet and dry sandpaper around the top of the Norton, wet it and tried to set the bevel on that. It worked! I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but it worked for me. Within two to five minutes the bevel was set and looking much more even. I then did sets of 20 on the 4k, testing shaving leg hair after each set. I'm not sure how many were needed, it's immaterial really, I just kept going until I could shave leg hair easily. I then did 100 laps on the 8k.

My theory was to set the bevel, then polish to 8k and then polish to 4k. I'm being a bit of a heretic and moving away from the pyramid idea. After all, if you're polishing a razor using wet and dry or a wheel, do you go back and forward? No, you polish out all you can with one level before moving to the next, you don't go back and create 4k scratches after spending time buffing them out with an 8k paper, etc.

Anyway, that's just me thinking aloud. After I did 100 on the 8k I did 20 on the Shapton 16k. I tested it on leg hair, wasn't happy,so did an aggressive pyramid, followed by 20 on the Shapton (yes, I know I said I was moving away from the pyramid idea, but I did this anyway).

The razor now feels good to the TPT, tomorrow's shave will tell, you'll have to wait till then to find out, as will I. It also looks good, too :-)...

I've been reading and re-reading this post. I wanted to make sure you knew that adding tape would not make your bevel any wider. If you started with a freshly buffed blade, and put 3 or more layers of tape on it, you'd have a very thin, very stout little bevel. Good luck on the shave test!

Hi regularjoe,
Yes, I do realise adding layers of tape will increase the steepness of the angle and thereby have an effect on the wideness of the bevel. I'm not overly fussed about a wide bevel; I just want a clean, even, SHARP bevel! :-) The edge was not very narrow to start with, and has not increased in width all that much. The test shave this morning was still not good, but it was a little better than before. It is clear to me at this stage that I really needed a courser method to set the bevel right from the beginning, and that possibly a few attempts had been done previously. I think I would have had to hone on the 4k for a very, very long time to clean up that edge. I guess on a razor this old (possibly as old at 1882) it may have been honed by a few people who may have used different methods. Using the 1600 wet and dry quickly removed the multiple angles on the bevel; I was surprised at how quickly. I've never had to REALLY set a bevel before, even when I purposely dulled two razors for the JaNorton challenge I wasn't really setting the bevel on the 4k, just slightly re-instating it.

As this morning's shave was still lacking, I have some options:

• 1. Sell the razor and pass it off as a bad experience. Of course the razor is NOT at fault, but my honing skills are still new
• 2. Buy a 1k hone and set the bevel using that and continue
• 3. Set the bevel again using the 1600 wet and dry, though I know that's a bodgy method
• 4. Send the razor away to be honed.

I think what I'll do is option 3. I can't afford a 1k hone, really, for possibly a single use. I'll re-hone Friday night and over the weekend if needed and see how I go. I think the closest honemeister is in Sydney. At the end of the day, I don't intend to get many more razors, and do not envisage setting bevels into the future. Therefore if I get a 1k hone, I still may end up with a dull razor (due to inexperience) but if I send it away I'll probably pay around the same amount as a hone (depending on how much work needs to be done) and get a guaranteed sharp razor that I can keep in good shape with my Norton 4/8 and Shapton 16k.

Thanks everyone for all the advice.

Thanks for the update. I've used some unorthodox methods too, but I'm not a honemeister or working on anybody elses razors, so I'll give something a shot if i think it will work. I for one appreciate your honesty about using the wet/dry sand paper, I did the same thing before I got a 1000k and it worked. Have fun thats what its all about. Every day's a learning experience and the day I stop learning is the day I'm six foot under. Let us know how the next honing session goes.

Carl, if you get no joy, send me the razor & I'll set the bevel for you . You can do the rest. Just pay postage both ways as I'm broke too :)

Hi twogun. Thanks for the comment re my honesty! Yeah, I was brave, wasn't I? There's probably a bunch of people saying "He did WHAT, the idiot!!!"

Hi onimaru55. Thanks, that's much appreciated, you may have gathered when I said about a honemeister in Sydney I was thinking of you! :-)

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Hi onimaru55. Thanks, that's much appreciated, you may have gathered when I said about a honemeister in Sydney I was thinking of you! :-)

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I'm flattered to be in your thoughts Carl :p ;)

This is where I'm up to at the moment...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shave...tml#post931590

Yep, i have a Depew' also and ran in to the same problems.. I got a 3.00 loupe from sleazebay and saw some edge nibbles. So i put it on a 1k and was on it like a fat kid on a doughnut.... It squared up and now it is a permanent part of the rotation.

So adding tape is not an option you will entertain or recognize. lol. Good luck friend. :)

Hi regularjoe,
Sorry, I don't mean to be dismissive about the extra layers of tape, of course it's a valid option. The reason I am choosing not to use extra tape is I want to even out the whole of the existing bevel. It's possible that after I've done that I'll add another later. That way I suspect I'll have two nice even bevels parallel to the edge of the blade all the way along the blade. I fear if I go the extra layer now, I'll still be left with an uneven bevel, albeit one not actually on the edge. i realise this will make no difference to the cutting edge, but will mess with my OCD and look a little unsightly. I'd rather a wider even bevel than two, with one being uneven. Does that make sense? The other reason is I want to 'standardise' the number of layers. Again, I'm thinking it's possible i forget in the future that I've used two layers of tape. Better for me to leave it at one and put up with a wide (yet hopefully even and smooth) bevel.

Each time I try to hone this razor it improves, but it's STILL not there yet! I was able to shave my goatee off with it last night, no nicks or irritation, but it's still not a CLOSE shave, no where near as nice as my other razors that I've honed on the same equipment. It's like shaving with a Bic that's a month old with no cream.

I know I said in another thread that I'm going to keep going until i get it right, but I think I'll actually have Sunday night as the last chance. If I can't get it done after honing it again tonight (Fri) Sat and Sun I'll send it away. I do thank you all for all your input, it is ALL valid. I do know I'm making mistakes, and I know I over think things and sometimes go against the wisdom, but I want to know WHY it's not going too well.

Wintchase,
I thing i'm almost there with this, at least I HOPE so. The edge looks really smooth, even, shiny and straight. I actually can't for the life of me work out why it's not sharp. It could be the bevel's still not set 100% right.

I'm a passionate proponent of tape after five months of honing hell. lol. Thanks for explaining your logic to me. I don't think that deeply about these things. First, I go for shaving sharp. Second, I go for aesthetics. Third, if priority one is satisfied, priority two becomes null and void. Different strokes for different folks. I just thought you really, really, really didn't want to use tape. :)

Carl , after seeing the SOTD pics. I think your problem is the razor is so worn that the stabiliser is lifting the heel. It is more obvious on one side & I'd bet the toe was honing up way before the heel. No amount of tape would correct that.
Really should have done something with that first. Here's a bit more info: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ing-heels.html

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

I'm a passionate proponent of tape after five months of honing hell. lol. Thanks for explaining your logic to me. I don't think that deeply about these things. First, I go for shaving sharp. Second, I go for aesthetics. Third, if priority one is satisfied, priority two becomes null and void. Different strokes for different folks. I just thought you really, really, really didn't want to use tape. :)

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I AM using tape, albeit one layer only. And yes, I know at times I'm completely illogical, you just need to read the words under my avatar to realise that :-)

Best wishes, Carl

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Carl , after seeing the SOTD pics. I think your problem is the razor is so worn that the stabiliser is lifting the heel. It is more obvious on one side & I'd bet the toe was honing up way before the heel. No amount of tape would correct that.
Really should have done something with that first. Here's a bit more info: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ing-heels.html

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Thanks a heap, that's really helpful. The photos are exactly what mine is like, as you say! Actually, the last 3/4 of a CM or so at the toe isn't even touching the hone when it's laid flat (but only one one side, when laid flat on the other side the whole length touches); I tried to compensate by sort of lifting it 'manually' so to speak.

I think maybe I should just drive up to Sydney for the weekend, but I hear it's pretty much under water...

Last ditch effort on this this weekend, otherwise I'll be sending it out. I'll PM you for full honing charges, sometimes it's just better to let the experts do it; I just wish I could just be taught to fish; if you get the adage...

Possibly a warp issue as well :shrug:
Yeah. Sydney's somewhat "damp" atm. You'd need snorkels & flippers. ;)
I get the fishing analogy. Used to fish a lot. I could even teach you how to cast a fly rod :)
Keep us posted .

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Thanks a heap, that's really helpful. The photos are exactly what mine is like, as you say! Actually, the last 3/4 of a CM or so at the toe isn't even touching the hone when it's laid flat (but only one one side, when laid flat on the other side the whole length touches); I tried to compensate by sort of lifting it 'manually' so to speak.

I think maybe I should just drive up to Sydney for the weekend, but I hear it's pretty much under water...

Last ditch effort on this this weekend, otherwise I'll be sending it out. I'll PM you for full honing charges, sometimes it's just better to let the experts do it; I just wish I could just be taught to fish; if you get the adage...

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Yeah, 'tis warped. I need to rock it on the hone to get contact on all of one edge (but not the other side???). Maybe the spine is uneven? Anyway, it's shaving, Jim, but not as we know it...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shave...tml#post932138

[EDIT] this here is what I need to do, as described by xman:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...th-honing.html

are wide bevels really so ugly... i thought so at first and got this result with really my only wedge with 4-5 pieces of tape and didn't enjoy the edge.. and it was a pain to keep the tape symmetric across the spine.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...120_152614.jpg

i figured i would get down to 1 layer and it took quite a long time on a very low grit hone and got to this..

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--...218_135807.jpg

in person it's so beautiful, and the shave was so so nice... after all the work put into this wedge and the result, i'll never curse a wide bevel again.. I have a new found appreciation, but a warped bevel.. that's something altogether different...

Actually, I was thinking last night that there is actually and advantage in a way to a wide bevel. For those of us without microscopes or loupes, you can really see what's going on with a wide bevel. Each few passes on the hone tells a story about what part of the bevel may or may not be touching the hone; you can really see the bevel being polished as you go from 4 to 8k. As my blade is a little warped, I needed to use a rocking motion for one side, as stated. The wide bevel allowed me to see exactly what I was doing. My other 4 razors I use (I have one waiting buffing and honing) have very very narrow bevels. I'm not fussed about the wide bevel on mine, esp as now it's even and polished along the length. I still can get the edge better, but if I can't, I'll send it out for re-honing. Does anyone know if evening the SPINE is an option; or does one normally put up with using the rocking motion to hone? It's even possible I'll go further and get the whole razor refurbished.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Does anyone know if evening the SPINE is an option; or does one normally put up with using the rocking motion to hone?

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Honing without tape, you can make minor corrections to geometry but if the thing needs a regrind &/or is badly warped you may still need to adapt your stroke.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Honing without tape, you can make minor corrections to geometry but if the thing needs a regrind &/or is badly warped you may still need to adapt your stroke.

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Great, ta, so really, at the end of the day, I may as well just keep using the adapted stroke, really? I guess one thing's for sure, this razor is pushing me to learn more about honing and maybe use some more advanced techniques, and with the help of guys like you too, of course :-)

There's nothing like learning from experience ;)

Yeah, too true, I'm giving it another whirl this evening, just the 4/8 and 16, maybe a conservative pyramid, with a lot of attention on the water displacement at the edge of the blade...

I am very interested in thread as I am considering purchasing a wedge. Thanks to all.