Contrary advise?

Gentlemen:
I would like to start a discussion and hear opinions on something that, to me, seems to contradict one another.

Common advice given to newbies (of which I still consider myself) is to buy a shave ready razor when the decision is made to take the plunge. I consider this sound advise, and having followed it myself feel that it has allowed me to successfully focus on developing proper technique without having to worry about the razor itself (until I screwed it up on the strop - but that is another thread!) In keeping said razor sharp, stropping and touch-ups with pastes and barber's hones is often asked about and discussed.

Switch now to honing - The advice often given it to start with a 4k/8k combo and buy a finisher (12k or such) later when one feels comfortable with technique coming off the 8k.

So here are my thoughts: If one buys a shave ready razor as his first razor, shouldn't the first hone aquired be the finisher? Assuming the edge isn't ruined by improper stropping (a pretty big assumption, I concede) wouldn't the first time a shave ready razor touches a hone be when it requires a "touch up" only? With a 12k finisher, the newbie can practice the full honing motion on a full sized stone and not a barber's hone. This would require a small amount of strokes per session as opposed to a full blown sharpening regimen, and if done properly, would prolong the life of the edge. When the time comes for the razor to be sharpened more extensively, numerous touch-ups on the 12k stone would have provided enough repetitions for the now not-so-newbie to be comfortable with honing and therefore want to purchase the lower grit stones to bevel set or what have you.


As always, my assumptions may be flawed and my facts may be incorrect, so please fix those if needed (but that's why we're here, right?) Thanks to all for their help and insight.

Gags

I'm sure there are lots of opinions on this, here's mine:

The thing with the finisher only in your description is that when an edge is maintained on pastes for touch-ups, it tends to round off a bit.
So, when the user finally reach the point where the pasted strop doesn't quite get the edge back, you really need more than a finisher to put it back.

That's why the 4/8 combo is such a great and versatile tool.
It can get you back from a rounded edge, it can be used to set a bevel and it can finish the razor quite admirably.

Now, if one catches the edge before it falls off too much, then sure, a finisher will be able to put it back.
A barber hone will be another very suitable tool for the user you are describing.
That can, when used properly, keep an edge going indefinitely IMO.

In principle I would agree with buying the 12k to begin with. OTOH, that is not what I did. I began with the norton starter set of the 220/1k, 4/8k and lapping plate. Shortly thereafter I added a shapton pro 12k. Anyway, I did not hone the shave ready razors I had bought from vendors. To learn I bought vintage razors in excellent or better condition to learn on. I always used 1 layer of electrical tape for the first year or so until I felt confident enough in my skills, that I wouldn't cause excessive wear at the spine, to do without the tape.

Honing razors takes some learning of stroke, pressure, you eventually develop the muscle memory, but it takes a number of razors IMO. How long it takes, as with any learned skill, depends on the individual. Anyway, that is what I did. If you have one or two shave ready razors a 12k is good for touchups. Some guys will recommend a barber hone. I would say get one but get the 12k as well.

Before I ever found SRP I maintained 2 razors on a biweekly basis using only a Arkansas stone (a special one) for 20+ years I wish I had known about Barber's hones back then, could have saved mony :)

What you are talking about is more than possible it is pretty much the way things were done for years.. The shaver maintained their razors, and brought it to a Cuttler (some were Barbers) for other fixes

Is it good for you ??? I have no clue..

You have to decide what you are after, but that is exactly how I started

you might want to read this it is the latest version..

http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post750448

I've seen threads in both directions man. I've seen guys ask "what's the first stone I should buy?" and get advice of Nani12k, C12k, barber hone, etc. And I've seen guys who say "I want to hone! What should I buy?". Those in the latter usually get advised to go the Norton route, and hold off on a finisher until after they can shave off the 8k. I think the bottom line for it is that the senior members are trying to advise, dependant on the purpose of the user, while reminding us to go one step at a time. So if a person wants to hone, they get Nortons or something similar. While if they want to maintain their edges between send offs, they get a 12k or something higher.

Hmm..looks like they beat me to it...lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

In principle I would agree with buying the 12k to begin with. OTOH, that is not what I did. I began with the norton starter set of the 220/1k, 4/8k and lapping plate. Shortly thereafter I added a shapton pro 12k. Anyway, I did not hone the shave ready razors I had bought from vendors. To learn I bought vintage razors in excellent or better condition to learn on. I always used 1 layer of electrical tape for the first year or so until I felt confident enough in my skills, that I wouldn't cause excessive wear at the spine, to do without the tape.

Honing razors takes some learning of stroke, pressure, you eventually develop the muscle memory, but it takes a number of razors IMO. How long it takes, as with any learned skill, depends on the individual. Anyway, that is what I did. If you have one or two shave ready razors a 12k is good for touchups. Some guys will recommend a barber hone. I would say get one but get the 12k as well.

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I agree with Jimmy. Having a shave ready razor is essential, but having one to learn to hone on, that is not the one you are using consistently is also important in my opinion. I made the mistake of trying to fix up my main razor and almost quit straight razors because I couldn't get a comfortable shave. Then I picked up one off of the classifieds here that was shave ready and it brought me back to loving it again. Although I developed RAD immediately afterwards, but that is another story. LOL

Yea Glen is right. Through the golden age of straights when it was the only way to shave the average Joe had 1 hone he used to keep the razor keen and if you asked him what the grit was he'd look at you like you were crazy. He just bought it from a barber or cutlery shop where it was sold as maint. for a razor. In those days there were plenty of places to go to get a razor professionally sharpened or repaired on the cheap and it was done right.

The first hone I bought was the Norton 4/8 combo and later on added a Kitayama. After that...well...you know the story.

Yeah, one finishing hone is more than enough as long as you don't also use pasted strops which would round the bevel beyond what that hone can recover.
The advantage of a norton is that it's more versatile, so you can recover from much more situations of making an error. My first experience was a touch up with something like 15-30 strokes on a 1"x4.5" thuringian. I had no idea what pressure etc to use, so I went with what I read 'as light s possible'. Having no experience whatsoever I thought the razor was not even touching the hone just gliding over the water, but to my amazement it magically worked like a charm and the razor was back to shaving like a dream (only because it was properly honed before).

A finisher makes sense if a person is to maintain a shave ready razor.
However it has occured countless times, once a person starts to use SR, they become razor hoarders.
Then most people want to hone their blades, and then just finisher will not cut it when it comes to fixing edges or bevel resets.
In this latter case one has to use several stones in a progression.

A coticule with slurry stone is all you need. With slurry pretty fast, some people even reset bevels with coticule and heavy slurry. With little or no slurry much higher grit equivalent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

A finisher makes sense if a person is to maintain a shave ready razor.
... just finisher will not cut it when it comes to fixing edges or bevel resets.

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I think that sums up the difference in the advice.
It depends on the person's goal - if they just want to maintain their razor forever, a finishing stone or a barber hone can do it.
If they are going to want to expand their collection and do more serious honing, it makes sense to start with the 4/8.

I don't really think there is a contradiction in the advise, it is more one of those "how you look at it" things. Other things being equal, it is a great idea for a beginner shaver to get a shave-ready razor to start with. Other things being equal, it is a great idea for a beginner honer to get a (for example) Norton 4/8 combo stone. A beginner shaver and a beginner honer need not be the same person. Even if they are the same person, as has already been mentioned above that does not necessarily mean their sole goal is to maintain their shave-ready razor (although of course it very well might be).

In a certain sense advise for shavers is often given independently of advice given to honers, and vice-versa. However, if a new shaver asks for advice on maintaining their blade(s), and I can recall numerous threads along these lines, the advice is often more tailored when it comes to hones.

James.

The word honing means more than just finishing. I agree with what you are saying, the problem is that " honing " means to be able to make anything shave ready. I think way too many people try to learn to hone way too early. The order should be: learn to shave without damaging an edge, learn to strop to maintain the edge, learn to keep the edge with a barber hone/ finisher, learn to hone a new razor, learn to hone a used razor, learn to restore a screwed up razor.

There is also overlap with another term, restoration. Many of the stages I mentioned are referred to by others as restoration vice honing.

Also, an 8k is a more than acceptable finisher, so you could use it to maintain an edge.

Huzaa Alan Huzaa !!!!

:tu


That is about as perfectly put as possible...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The order should be: learn to shave without damaging an edge, learn to strop to maintain the edge, learn to keep the edge with a barber hone/ finisher, learn to hone a new razor, learn to hone a used razor, learn to restore a screwed up razor.

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So basically my original logic is sound and in-line with this reasoning, right?

As if I could add to this thread!

I started with just the bbw/coti finisher and learned to use it (eventually!) I found this beneficial as i learned to get the most of that stone(I think) before moving on to get a 1000/4000 king. The king helped speed the bevel setting and make the bevels more consistent.

I think in hind sight that was a good learning curve or approach to not diving too deep right away.

Just a few thoughts from a newbie perspective. :shrug:

Nathaniel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joegags

So basically my original logic is sound and in-line with this reasoning, right?

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Yes, the basic logic is sound, with the exception of some of your inferred presumptions about barber hones vs full size 12 k stones. Depending on the definition it would be better to learn how to finish first, rather than learning how to hone. Additionally, it should be made clear that it is sometimes a challenge to finish an edge that you personally didn't hone, for a variety of reasons.

And as your experience also shows learning to keep an edge through stropping is an important prerequisite.

Obviously the answer is to get two shave ready razors, a norton combo and a 12k - oh and don't forget the ebay beater and a 1k hone. Hone one of the shave ready's little but often on the 12k and the other take back to the norton every once in a while. Experiment with the 1k and the ebay razor. I found when starting to hone it's very handy to have a practice razor you can use as much as want on any stone. I shave three or four times a week and building the muscle memory required for honing was far quicker having a blade I could hone on for 10 mins or so a day, at first I would get a feel for the stone using my practice razor before switching to one of my shavers.

Having one shave ready straight razor isn't really conducive to learning to hone, if you have a nice stropping technique it's not going to need to see the hone very often or for very long and honing seems to be one of those things that improves with the more laps that you do and the more often you do them.