Edge that only lasts a few passes

Hi Guys,

I've been honing razors for about a year now. I'm guessing over 100 razors by now. But recently I had a customer with a new Dovo say his razor stopped shaving half way through his shave. I asked him if it keened up after stropping but have not heard from him yet. Then yesterday I had a customer bring an Art of Shaving straight razor. After honing it was showing similar results. I test shaved a few passes it stopped shaving. Dull as dull. Nothing from the thumb pad test. I strop it up. Zingo bango the thumb pad test says yikes that a sharp one, nice gummy feel. Shave a few more passes dull as dull, strop and sharp again. I looked at it under a 30x loop and the bevel looked good, high polish to shaving edge, no defects in the edge, no bur, no foil, just an edge.

I set the bevel on a 1000 Norton then moved up 4000 Norton then 8000 Norton then 12000 Chinese wet then 15000 Chinese wet then strop linen the leather, a few passes on a glassy Swaty, strop linen then leather.

I have never had this issue with any vintage straight razors. I found it added that I had two in a row that dull so fast yet keen up with with simple stropping. I generally strop 15-20 laps on both linen and leather.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I don't have the razors anymore they have been given back to the customer.

Thanks,
Mike

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Originally Posted by mbrando

I looked at it under a 30x loop and the bevel looked good, high polish to shaving edge, no defects in the edge, no bur, no foil, just an edge.

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Sometimes a higher powered microscope or even a look under bright sunlight is necessary to confirm or deny what you see at 30x.
No offence but at 12mths /100 razors you may be missing something subtle in the image. Can happen to any of us.

If a rehoning gave the same results, it's possibly a fault of the razor i.e. heat treat etc. but 2 in a row is odd.

Could it be the customers are newbs & are stropping heavily or poorly. This should be obvious under magnification tho.

Did you look at the edge before you stropped or rehoned it? It might have been overhoned that's all I can think of.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Sometimes a higher powered microscope or even a look under bright sunlight is necessary to confirm or deny what you see at 30x.
No offence but at 12mths /100 razors you may be missing something subtle in the image. Can happen to any of us.

If a rehoning gave the same results, it's possibly a fault of the razor i.e. heat treat etc. but 2 in a row is odd.

Could it be the customers are newbs & are stropping heavily or poorly. This should be obvious under magnification tho.

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The art of shaving razor I did re-hone once. The first time I thought I missed something. I often do use a bright light looking at the edge. You can see if things are not right even without magnification. The edge looked okay, but I dropped back down to 1k about 20 laps, it felt good on the thumb pad and shaved hair hair, moved up and it was acting strange again.

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Did you look at the edge before you stropped or rehoned it? It might have been overhoned that's all I can think of.

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Yes, looked at it in the light, not with a loop though. Could be over honing. If the bevel is good, It usually only take about 15-20 minutes for me to tune up a razor. So I did not spend a lot of time on the hones. If I get them back I'll put them under the USB microscope and take some photos. Maybe I'm doing something different in my process. The nortons have been lapped flat recently. I have not lapped the 12k or 15k for a while. Maybe they need some attention. They look flat with a rule but the faces are getting glassy.

Thought I'd throw it out there for comments. If I figure it out I'll post back.

Thanks,
Mike

Drop all the BS and do an Norton 4/8 and strop and shave...

No sense in doing anything else if that won't hold...

Is the bevel well and truly set ???? if there isn't a full well set bevel you can get a false edge...

I would concentrate on the bevel set then 4/8 and go from there

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Drop all the BS and do an Norton 4/8 and strop and shave...

No sense in doing anything else if that won't hold...

Is the bevel well and truly set ???? if there isn't a full well set bevel you can get a false edge...

I would concentrate on the bevel set then 4/8 and go from there

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BS?? ... either way I bet it's and issue with the bevel not being correct, as noted. The more I think about it, that is the only thing it can be. I'm going to get the blades back from the customer and get them tuned.

- Mike

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Originally Posted by mbrando

BS?? ... either way I bet it's and issue with the bevel not being correct, as noted. The more I think about it, that is the only thing it can be. I'm going to get the blades back from the customer and get them tuned.

- Mike

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What Glen is saying is finishing on high grit is moot if theres an issue, you can be wasting your time...

This is not meant to be derogatory in the least, but it almost makes me feel good that some experienced honing people are experiencing an issue I had with a couple of razors. It really hurts your confidence when you successfully hone a few and then all of a sudden you can't bring one around that "everybody" says shaves like a dream.

The advice I received is pretty much the same as I'm reading here. When in doubt and have tried everything that has worked for you in the past, start over. That's what I ultimately did with two problem razors. One of the two still didn't respond after that. It was a Red Imp, which seems to be universally liked. Finally I bought two balsa strops, one covered with chromium oxide (the green paste) and the other with diamond slurry spray. The seller of those two balsa strops (Ron at Star Shaving) said to do 30-40 laps each with those, then 80-100 laps with the leather. Finally, the Red Imp came around. This morning I sent Ron a thank you email.

I think this is the reason I remain interested in straight shaving and other people think I'm nuts for being excited about such a mundane daily ritual. They use disposables and cartridges and I can understand in that context why they think I'm crazy. Once you feel like you've earned your stripes, a curve ball is thrown at you and you seek resolution from a community of shavers.

:gaah:

In one of gssixgun's honing videos, he sets the bevel then runs the edge across the corner of the 1k (I think?) hone (intentional dulling) then re-sets the bevel on the 1k again. I've found this to be really useful on toothy, crumbly or overhoned edges. Maybe this would help

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Originally Posted by rodb

In one of gssixgun's honing videos, he sets the bevel then runs the edge across the corner of the 1k (I think?) hone (intentional dulling) then re-sets the bevel on the 1k again. I've found this to be really useful on toothy, crumbly or overhoned edges. Maybe this would help

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I do a ton of restore, and coming off the buffers the edge can be a bit "Toothy" as you put it, I have found that "Killing the edge" just eliminates tons of problems, and it is really just that easy..

Also this reminds me of a Livi that came to me with much the same problem as Mike is describing, and I fixed it exactly with what Rod just noted. Part of the bevel had never been completely set and what was happening was the edge in certain spots was falling apart from the shave, and causing real pulling after a pass or two... Hit the finishers and you tweak it enough to pass all the tests except the second shaving pass test..

I killed that edge reset the bevel, killed and reset it again, then took it up, as far as I know the razor is still shaving..

BUT you could see the problem by looking at 30X, the bevel was so thin in spots it was almost invisible..

Each razor has to be anylized and the problem solved there is no set solution we can only offer our experiences, and my biggest expierience is that most every honing problem is actually in the bevel stage...

Which is why I said reset the bevel, do a 4/8 and then shave test, that eliminates the variables of 1/2 of Mike's honing progression... :)

I've noticed the "edge doesn't last through the shave" issue on a few new Dovos. As everyone is saying, go back and start over. That has always fixed the issue for me. Lately I have been honing the Dovos on the lower grits for a lot more strokes - when the thumb nail or arm hair tests feel good I just keep going. You gotta treat 'em mean to get 'em keen!! :p

James.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

What Glen is saying is finishing on high grit is moot if theres an issue, you can be wasting your time...

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Hi,

Thanks for clarifying. I did come away with that. Very true.

- Mike

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I've noticed the "edge doesn't last through the shave" issue on a few new Dovos. As everyone is saying, go back and start over. That has always fixed the issue for me. Lately I have been honing the Dovos on the lower grits for a lot more strokes - when the thumb nail or arm hair tests feel good I just keep going. You gotta treat 'em mean to get 'em keen!! :p

James.

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Hi,

Boy to do I here you. I must have forgot that part. Should have dropped back to basics.

- Mike

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Originally Posted by CaliforniaCajun

This is not meant to be derogatory in the least, but it almost makes me feel good that some experienced honing people are experiencing an issue I had with a couple of razors. It really hurts your confidence when you successfully hone a few and then all of a sudden you can't bring one around that "everybody" says shaves like a dream.

The advice I received is pretty much the same as I'm reading here. When in doubt and have tried everything that has worked for you in the past, start over. That's what I ultimately did with two problem razors. One of the two still didn't respond after that. It was a Red Imp, which seems to be universally liked. Finally I bought two balsa strops, one covered with chromium oxide (the green paste) and the other with diamond slurry spray. The seller of those two balsa strops (Ron at Star Shaving) said to do 30-40 laps each with those, then 80-100 laps with the leather. Finally, the Red Imp came around. This morning I sent Ron a thank you email.

I think this is the reason I remain interested in straight shaving and other people think I'm nuts for being excited about such a mundane daily ritual. They use disposables and cartridges and I can understand in that context why they think I'm crazy. Once you feel like you've earned your stripes, a curve ball is thrown at you and you seek resolution from a community of shavers.

:gaah:

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Hi,

Thanks. I did not take your comment badly. I get what your saying. Its a learning process and I have to remind myself that what usually works for most razors may not work for the one in hand. One of things I like about this forum is that you always get good feed back from everyone.

- Mike

Hi,

I talked to one of the razor owners and he said his blade was keeping an edge fine. He just stropped it a lot and its been great since.

When I talked to the other guy, I had him send it back. When I received it, the was not keen, I stropped it hard and it keened up. So I decided to just start over at 1000 and work my way back up. When I was done. I test shaved and tested the edge a few times and it is now holding up fine.

It must have been the bevel not being set correctly. I'll have to pay closer attention.

- Mike

I usually just hone one razor, so I don't usually notice the contrast. This last weekend I did 5. 2 different sizes of W&B Bows, a Genco, touched up a Russian, and an old Bismark.

What surprised me was how little the Genco needed and how much I had to do to the Bows.

I think I got my closest shave yet this morning with the 6/8 Bow. The Genco yesterday is a close second.

This is just too much fun. The steady flow of information from Glen and the others just makes my honing get better and better.

I've sold two on the Bay as shave ready. I wish there was a way to get more feedback from the buyers on how they liked the shave. At least I didn't get any complaints. :)

When I was learning to hone (always learning mind you), it was recommended to me to stop at 8K & strop only about 20x on plain leather & shave test with it. If it shaved well, then take it to a finisher. This really worked well for me. All that stropping with pastes and stuff will hide deficiencies in the edge.

Basically what I am saying is that a razor that shaves good straight off the stones, shaves even better once stropped. If it doesn't shave well off the stones...well, ugly is still ugly no matter how much make-up is applied.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

....I wish there was a way to get more feedback from the buyers on how they liked the shave. At least I didn't get any complaints. :)

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I'd put a big note asking them to email you after their first shave. I have a sheet I include with my razors after honing. It asks them to NOT strop the newly honed razor before their first shave. Shave first then strop as normally would. I've had a few ruin a good edge as they were still learning to strop. They happened to strop before the first shave.

- Mike

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Originally Posted by mbrando

I'd put a big note asking them to email you after their first shave. I have a sheet I include with my razors after honing. It asks them to NOT strop the newly honed razor before their first shave. Shave first then strop as normally would. I've had a few ruin a good edge as they were still learning to strop. They happened to strop before the first shave.

- Mike

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Good idea. I will start doing this.

I know the thread is pretty much resolved, but I'm wondering what is the reason for moving from a 15k stone through pastes, then back down to a Swaty, which most estimate at <15k. Thanks for your input. I'm a long way from dependable shaving sharp edges it seems, so I'm just looking to make sense of it. I've got a ton of barber hones, Swaty included, and all are pointless after a Norton 8k from my view. Keep in mind the second sentence of course.

I had a stuborn razor last week, a 'Newark Electric' that wouldn't hold an edge through a shave.
I tried to re-hone it a couple three times, finally I thought of "Jointing" the edge, with an after shave bottle[glass] before the final finishing, I very gently stroked the edge on the glass one time, you would think it would kill every thing but when I did my final finishing with just plain water and very light strokes and an conservative pyramid and low and behold, I got a great shave and it passed the HHT without a hitch!!!
I thank you all for all the advice over the years, it gives blokes like me the confidence to sit, scratch out heads and work through problems like this one, I thank you all!!!

As I've said before, a BBS for all!!!

tinkersd of SRP

I'm having this same problem with 2 razors (Dovo Natural 5/8 and Boker Olivewood Stainless 5/8). I'm sure it's not my stropping, because I also have a Dovo Best Class that works absolutely fine for me. Even though both the razors were professionally honed (SRDesigns), I'm considering attempting to reset the bevel with a Norton 220/1000. Any thoughts or advice?

Sometimes the spine can be worn down on old straights so that the angle is too shallow creating a very thin fin that can buckle after a few uses. This is rare, but a possibility. Another comment already made is that of heat which can alter the temper / toughness of the metal. One pass on a belt sander can reach very high temps. Once the edge has lost its temper it is over. Even professional re-tempering is not worth the exercise.

The first order of operations is to follow gssixgun's advice by killing the edge and then sneaking back up on the perfect edge through the 1/4/8 hone progression to leather. This will guarantee that the bevel is set properly.

I will now commit some heresy by suggesting that if all else fails apply tape to the spine before your final 8K pass. This may create a tougher micro-bevel. This is not what I normally recommend but it may help.

Thanks a bunch Gammaray!

Yes, I've read in my research about the heat tempering process. When I had this problem with one razor (my second one I purchased), I assumed maybe I just got a dud from the company. But then my third razor (from a different company) is also having the same problem...so, my first inclination is to conclude that something I'm doing is causing a problem. But I keep coming back to the fact that I'm having no problems whatsoever with my first razor, and since I'm doing everything the same, it's hard to believe that my stropping or touching up is the problem.

I hadn't heard about doing the final honing with tape--interesting idea that I may just be trying out this weekend! I have nothing to lose at this point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

I will now commit some heresy by suggesting that if all else fails apply tape to the spine before your final 8K pass. This may create a tougher micro-bevel. This is not what I normally recommend but it may help.

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Tis not heresy here on SRP tape is just tape :)

"At this point in time, we will put on new tape......"

Hi All,

I'm thinking that there is some sort of issue with the DOVOs that are coming out of the factory in the last year. I just purchased a brand new DOVO best quality from the art of shaving, and have had exactly the same problem that the original poster was talking about. The razor is honed to perfection when I start my shave, and the edge just fails in mid-shave, the first time I use it after honing it to perfection. If I strop it again, the edge comes back temporarily, but it seems crazy that I should have to babysit my new razor just to get a shave out of it. I know that new razors aren't really shave ready, in the sense of being able to shave with them, but shouldn't the bevel be set properly at the factory? One or two people having a problem with their blade would be normal, but it sounds like this is a common problem, particularly with razors for the art of shaving. I just emailed the art of shaving to see what they think I should do, and whether it could be exchanged for another of the same, to see if I have better luck. Do you really think it is an issue with the bevel in my case, or could it be that the razor wasn't annealed properly? Maybe a batch went out before they were ready? DOVO makes great razors, so whats going on with this?

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Originally Posted by whiskey619

Hi All,

I'm thinking that there is some sort of issue with the DOVOs that are coming out of the factory in the last year. I just purchased a brand new DOVO best quality from the art of shaving, and have had exactly the same problem that the original poster was talking about. The razor is honed to perfection when I start my shave, and the edge just fails in mid-shave, the first time I use it after honing it to perfection. If I strop it again, the edge comes back temporarily, but it seems crazy that I should have to babysit my new razor just to get a shave out of it. I know that new razors aren't really shave ready, in the sense of being able to shave with them, but shouldn't the bevel be set properly at the factory? One or two people having a problem with their blade would be normal, but it sounds like this is a common problem, particularly with razors for the art of shaving. I just emailed the art of shaving to see what they think I should do, and whether it could be exchanged for another of the same, to see if I have better luck. Do you really think it is an issue with the bevel in my case, or could it be that the razor wasn't annealed properly? Maybe a batch went out before they were ready? DOVO makes great razors, so whats going on with this?

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This is your problem in red... No the bevel is NOT set at the factory therefore the razor is NOT honed to perfection... Read post #5 and then #10 the bevel has to be truly set and your issues will go away... This is why we recommend over and over to buy the razors from a reputable vendor that hones the razors by hand, before shipping them...

Factory honing has been found to be "Sketchy" at best

Thanks for the response, I appreciate you setting me straight on this so that I know what to expect if I purchase new razors in the future.

When I purchased the razor, the people at the store recommended a local knife shop that does sharpening on all kinds of blades, and I brought it there before I started using it. Do you think I should bring it back to them and ask them to set the bevel properly, since I can't get a good shave out of it? Or should I try to do it myself now that I have a 4k/8k norton? I have a lot of experience sharpening knives, but not much working with razors...

Thoughts?

No knife shops :(

Unless the guy shaves with his own straight razor they have no clue how to hone them...


You need a solid base from which to start from..

There is a thread JaNorton that has the most amount of info you could imagine about honing with that stone, very LONG read

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html

Why don't you start reading that and watching the Vids linked to it, and package the razor up fire it out to me, and I will set it right using only the Norton 4/8 and you will know what "shave ready" means,,, no charge for the honing, shipping is on you though :) That way you will have a razor that shaves, and you will know just what a Norton 4/8 can really do :p



Fire me a PM if you want to take advantage of the offer

Funny, but I've had a couple of friends change their mind about getting a razor from me when I tell them I shave tested it.

Then I have to go through the whole lecture on how that's the only way to really be sure, and how I sterilize them afterwards.

Please, no knife shops, get it pro honed. If it were not a new razor and had been freshly honed I would say it might have a crumbling edge, par for the course on some older razors. Damn Sheffields usually. Hopefully you cant tell I am working on one right now.

I promise, no more knife shop for me. The thing is I thought I was getting it professionally honed, since I was sent there by the employees of the store I purchased the razor from (a store that specializes in... razors). I guess your Mark Twain quote would apply in this situation, because I was definitely fooled and it took a long time, and a lot of expert testimony, before I was convinced of that.

If I can't get it straightened out myself, with the advice and help of SRP members, then I'll be taking Glen up on his offer.

Also, while I was doing research into buying a hone, I remember seeing a website where the owner would send you a razor to hone and then provide you with feedback when you sent it back. Does that ring a bell with anyone? I was thinking about doing it, but I can't remember the website...

Mark

The only hone you need is a barbers hone, learn to shave with and maintain a blade before you start investing in rocks.

I think I have a good bevel set for most of the blade, but I'm having trouble with the heel and toe. The blade is slightly round at either end which is giving me trouble in hitting those areas the way I'd like. What is the best way to deal with that? Should I do certain number of strokes with the heel/toe leading? is there some other technique I should try instead?

FYI, I ended of killing the blade on a jar, and the setting a new bevel angle with a couple pieces of tape, as Glen suggested, and it seems to have worked for the most part.