This razor is driving me crazy!!!

I've got a 9/16ths wedge, silver steel that just will not get sharp!!

I have been honing on this razor on and off for over a week now. I work on the bevel, think it is good, move up to the 4k and completely lose the edge. I have restarted on this guy at least 4 times.

Tonite I thought I had it, but after coming off the 8k it wouldn't even pass a thumbnail test.

Tonite I used a progression from an 800 to the 1k. After setting the bevel on the 800 it passed the TNT ok. End to end, it bit just like I expected it to. I got that elation that I had a decent bevel and moved up to the 1k for a few strokes. It was pushing water all the way up the blade easily.

It has a straight edge, no smile, I used 3 layers of tape all the way thru, retaping after every stone. I made it thru to the 4k and it still passed the TNT. I polished it on the 8k, 20 circles and 20 strokes as always, flip the stone and do it again. As I came off the 8k I could tell with the TPT that it was gone again. I tried the TNT and it was slick again.

I am getting pretty frustrated with this sucker. I went back to the 4k and did a bunch of circles and strokes, but the bevel just wouldn't come back. Now this is after about an hour of honing on this razor.

So, I just did my standard rotation on it, starting on the 1k, 20 circles 20 laps, flip the stone and do it again. I just moved to the 4k, mag looked good, did the same, moved to the 8k, mag looked good, did the same, moved to the 12k, mag looked great, and did the same. Very light pressure the whole way. Water moving beautifully up the blade. I didn't test, thinking maybe the test was doing it. I went ahead and gave it a few laps on the CrOx balsa and looked under mag. Looked fantastic!! Shiny, barely showing any scratches and glowing like a mirror. Then I tried the TPT and new instantly it wasn't there.

I put it up for the night, thinking I may just cut the scales off of it and throw this sucker out!!!

So, any advice??

M

Mike,
I never use the TNT on anything above 1k to check the bevel is set.
Any 'test' I do after that is the Arm Hair Test (I have never had any joy with the TPT)
If you are going to thow it out - send it to me....hehehehe
Hope it works out for you.
Cheers,
Geoff

Wedges can be bears to hone! And, honestly and I really mean honestly, I don't do all that well with wedges. For what it is worth, here's how I do it...

I always tape the spines of wedges with black electrical tape. I cut about 12 strips long enough to cover the spine, plus an inch, and leave them hanging from the edge of the table. For every hone, I do as follows:

* Hone until about ready to move to the next hone.
* Replace tape and hone another minute.

In other words, I use two strips of tape on every hone. I use the second strip of tape for just a short while before moving to the next hone.

Let's say that with tape applied, the bevel angle being set during honing is 18 degrees. As you hone, the tape will be worn away by the hone. Let's say that when you are ready to move to the next hone the bevel angle is now 17.5 degrees. What this might mean is that when you were honing, part of the time the edge was not being honed, but only the top of the wedge. If you think about it, you will realize that as tape wears down, the edge is lifted away from the hone. And, that is why I change tape VERY frequently.

Some here can tell you how to hone a wedge without tape.

I was just wondering if it's overhoned and if the edge is too thin/fragile/'tin foiling' would it give you those strange results from TNT and TPT because I noticed you're doing 40 circles and 40 laps total on 8k. Maybe I'm way out in left field here however >.<

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Originally Posted by mjhammer

So, I just did my standard rotation on it, starting on the 1k, 20 circles 20 laps, flip the stone and do it again. I just moved to the 4k, mag looked good, did the same, moved to the 8k, mag looked good, did the same, moved to the 12k, mag looked great, and did the same. Very light pressure the whole way. Water moving beautifully up the blade. I didn't test, thinking maybe the test was doing it. I went ahead and gave it a few laps on the CrOx balsa and looked under mag. Looked fantastic!! Shiny, barely showing any scratches and glowing like a mirror. Then I tried the TPT and new instantly it wasn't there.

I put it up for the night, thinking I may just cut the scales off of it and throw this sucker out!!!

So, any advice??

M

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I'd try a shave test after a progression like that to be honest.
I reckon you have your testing down pat, but still, a shave test might just give a different result than you think.
Bah, I don't know, but that's what I would have done anyway, if for nothing else, to get the 100% true proof it was not in shaving condition.

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Originally Posted by mjhammer

I've got a 9/16ths wedge, silver steel that just will not get sharp!!

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How big was it before you started honing ? :p

No seriously, I'm wondering if it was much wider before you got it & now so much steel is gone from previous honing that you have geometry issues or maybe the temper is much softer than the original edge. If it's really bugging you get someone else to have a go.
Usually tho, it's a bevel issue if razor gets less sharp as you go. Does it shave arm hair at 1k ?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

No seriously, I'm wondering if it was much wider before you got it & now so much steel is gone from previous honing that you have geometry issues or maybe the temper is much softer than the original edge. If it's really bugging you get someone else to have a go.
Usually tho, it's a bevel issue if razor gets less sharp as you go.

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Exactly what I was thinking. If you can't get it in a couple weeks, I'll be back in town and will give it a go for you, just cover shipping. The temper thing was another thought as mentioned above and if it's your first time to deal with it, it will drive you crazy. I sent a razor to Sham for a second opinion...yep, ruined temper from a auction seller. Still makes a good workshop knife...

I'd go with Larry's suggestion. Anytime I'm on 1K, which is rare, I replace the top layer of tape the minute I see any erosion of the tape surface. In my opinion, taping only on moving off the 1K may not be enough.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

How big was it before you started honing ? :p

No seriously, I'm wondering if it was much wider before you got it & now so much steel is gone from previous honing that you have geometry issues or maybe the temper is much softer than the original edge. If it's really bugging you get someone else to have a go.
Usually tho, it's a bevel issue if razor gets less sharp as you go. Does it shave arm hair at 1k ?

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First thing I should mention is the blade has a slight twist to it. One side lays flatter, so it is more in the grind than a twist, but either way it doesn't lay consistently flat and the toe is up on one side, the heel on the other.

To be honest, the answer to the last question is NO, it never really cut hair well at all. a few times, it would cut a hair or two, but only with the perfect angle and some pressure.

First question, width, it was in terrible shape on the edge when I got it. It had a frown, lots of patina and pitting. I hand sanded it first, then it got some light buffing, then I had to BK (just enough 45 degree angles to fix the frown). No pits are near the edge, no pits really are left now. well, there are definitely some but only high in the blade. So it was closer to a 5/8 when I got it. It has some uneven hone wear as well. So right now the blade is as consistent as I am able to make it.

I actually set the bevel the first time on the DMT until it was knife sharp, using 2 layers of tape before I ever took it to the 800 king. I only did that once. It took some work to get the bevel right the first time, but it still never exactly cut hair coming off the 800. At times it would pop a hair or two, but not consistently across the edge, which is why I would work it some more.

I tried some suggestions from Glen that worked on another wedge that I did hone quite successfully, extreme heel forward japanese type strokes, straight up and back. The bevel would look and feel pretty good coming off the TPT, but it wouldn't be consistent across the blade on the TNT. So back it would go.

Also, as Ace stated, I re-tape after every stone, every time. I've gone from starting with 2 layers, tried 3 layers, dropped to 1 layer on the last attempt. resetting the bevel at each change in tape density. Only thing I haven't tried is no tape at all. I've about used a whole roll of tape on this one! LOL. No way I could write about all the things I tried, I tried too many different things. I pretty much boiled the first post down to the most commonly attempted things, including the latest attempts.

I will have to contemplate this one. I have a feeling it boils down to the touch it needs. Unlike my first BIG wedge which needed a rough hand to get the bevel set, this one hasn't shown its requirements to me yet. Just like this blade, I'm not about to yield to it just yet.! I even took it for a ride this evening. I got the center so it felt and looked good, but it still wouldn't pop a hair.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not sure if pictures would help or not. Oh, BTW, the bevel is deeper in the center than at the heel and toe now, as would be expected due to the uneven hone wear and grind differences between the sides.

M

A couple of things come to mind Mike.
If it ain't cutting hair early on how much more work are you prepared to do on your mid stones & finishers to get there ? Could be a lot.
Another is magic marker. You making full contact ?
Third is... ok 3 things ;) If it was frowny & in bad shape what's to prevent you rehoning a frown into it ? The spine sets the edge. Have you addressed evening up the spine.? Some strategically use tape but I don't use tape in that situation until I'm happy with the spine at least. I fully accept wedges can need tape tho :)
There's a bit more info here :Honing: Troubleshooting Guide - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Ok, I gave it another shot this morning. I started from scratch, with NO tape, on the 1k. I just ran my normal routine, and I didn't do any testing at all. I just did my 20 circles, 20 strokes, flip and repeat.

I worked it up to the naniwa 12k, polished it 10 strokes on a crox balsa paddle, and stropped it. 100 felt, 100 leather.

THEN I tried the arm hair test. Hair flew off, literally popped and launched 1/2" away.

Now, I tried several sections of the blade, and found that the toe is not quite as good as the rest of the blade, but it still removes hair.

I used a very light touch the entire time. At times I put a little extra torque towards the heel, but that was it. It pushed water nicely so I didn't bother with anything fancy, no TPT, no TNT, just waited until the progression was finished.

It appears to have worked for me. As onimaru77 said, the spine wear was uneven toward the center, being more worn in the middle, which would seem likely since it had a frown when it started. So on my honing stroke, I used a rolling X, but a gentle rolling X with the emphasis on the heel. I'm not sure if I should mess with the toe again? or should I just shave test it and see what I have?

I read the link you suggested and found my example. I was going to do the partial taping of the spine in the worn area, but then just thought, give it a try without any tape first. It seems to have done ok. At least to this point that is what I believe. Again, I"ll have to shave test it today and decide.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. Learning is a challenge and a reward!!
M

Here are some pics of it, I tried my best to show the spine and bevel. Talk about a weird looking bevel. The thickest parts are from what the tape did. If you can see in the pic, there is a tiny bevel inside that big one. Which is not what I would have expected at all. I thought the opposite is what would have happened without the tape.

I'm not sure with the wavy looking stuff, and the double (sometimes triple) bevel if I should be concerned and start over or what??

At least it is cutting hair now. I'll shave test it, as I said, here in a few minutes and decide if the toe should need more work.

Now that it shaves hair, I'm not sure I want to mess with it anymore. Should I just run the toe on the 12k more? I don't really want to have to take it back to the 1k, since I have had some measure of success finally.

Any suggestions, comments, criticisms? I'm open to anything! LOL.

M

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Sounds like the toe is not quite there maybe ? but see how it shaves first.
Awesome it got sharper rather than duller this time :)

You may have to take the toe farther back than 12K, but I'd experiment with 4K prior to going back further.

hmmm, test shave was not good. Very good in the center, but not good at the toe OR heel.

I'll figure something out for this guy. I went ahead and popped it out of the scales and set her aside. More experience may yield the correct answer in the future. For now, I'm more concerned with fixing the bevel up right. It looks like crap, it's all wavy and uneven.

I may have to take it to the DMT again and even the spine up to get a good result. That just may be the answer I've been looking for, but I have several other razors to work on first, so off she goes to the 'someday' pile!!

Thanks for all the input guys!

M

Rolling x stroke and one very, very important suggestion: Get rid of that Frankenstein bolt and pin that gorgeous razor right!

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Rolling x stroke and one very, very important suggestion: Get rid of that Frankenstein bolt and pin that gorgeous razor right!

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Hehehe, I did that on purpose so I could yank it out easily without wasting any of my good pins Shooter!! LOL.. I've got razors that don't have a problem that are just begging to be put into those scales. No sense wasting too much time on one stubborn razor when I have so many more waiting their turn too!!

Only thing missing would be a neat little set of jumper cables to attach up to that hanging bolt, eh? ROFL!!

M

OK so I'm working this beast now. 3 hrs to get a bevel. 'Took alot of effort for the toe. Since then, tried the 4k norton w/ slurry, then water. Same w/ the 8k. Heel & toe were sharp, lopping hairs but the middle was nowhere. Back to 4k, then coti, then another coti, then back to 4k. Sheesh. 'No surprise the honorable hammer had trouble w/ this one.

Send it to Lynn.:banghead:

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Originally Posted by pinklather

OK so I'm working this beast now. 3 hrs to get a bevel. 'Took alot of effort for the toe. Since then, tried the 4k norton w/ slurry, then water. Same w/ the 8k. Heel & toe were sharp, lopping hairs but the middle was nowhere. Back to 4k, then coti, then another coti, then back to 4k. Sheesh. 'No surprise the honorable hammer had trouble w/ this one.

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Not that I take any joy in your pain, but I am mighty gratified that you aren't having an easy time of it either. At least that does make me feel just a tad bit better about it. Darn Sheffield wedges anyway!!! Heheh, good go at it Robert!!

M

Just putting this out there but I heard about a guy who had the same thing happen to his Timor. He found out that the edge at the toe needed to be angled up a bit more smiling like for the middle to make better contact to the stone and get sharp. Somehow it got bk'd flat and he stumbled upon this realization by trial and error. He found later that even though the spine was not smiling and perfectly straight with the way the grind was after it was checked with a straight edge it made sense. Here's a rough drawing of what I mean:

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