W&B B--tard wedge

Got a pre 1891 W&B wedge and it is a true wedge to try and fix up. Took her apart did what I could with limited skills, reassembled and proceeded to attempt to hone it. Used two strips of electrical tape and started out on a 1000 Naniwa to hone the chips out and set a bevel. Finally got the chips out but had a very uneven bevel but carried on to a 3000 Naniwa any way to see if I could get it to pop hairs. That was a no go so walked away from it for the day.

Next day having thought about it and the hugely uneven bevel decided to go with 4 strips of tape which was a little better but not quite there yet. So added 2 more strips for a total of six and got a workable but not too pretty bevel. Worked up to a 12000 Naniwa and shave tested. Got a rough shave from a semi sharp blade. So back down to an 8000 Naniwa and 6 strips of electrical tape and work back up. Got a decent shave this morning except for the chin and throat are under it. I think it is still not quite sharp enough yet because of that.

Just two questions really. Is it normal to have to use 6 strips of electrical tape on a true wedge? I am thinking that I am going to try an extra layer on top of the 6 just on the side of the blade where the edge is still too narrow compared to the other side to try and even things up a bit. Would that work?

Just a total newbie winging it and doing whatever it takes to try and get an edge. Working with a true wedge has been an interesting and frustrating experience. Mind you actually shaving with a 120+ year old razor more than makes up for the frustrations.

Bob

Pics ????

True wedges are very very rare, I have seen 2, there is a thread on here about some Theories on how they were actually honed in the past...
Looking at the bevels and thinking it through I have always thought that either they lifted the "Spine" and honed it like an knife, or there was a "Cheater bar".. Perhaps I am wrong on both accounts and they were honed on a wheel :shrug:

But using Tape might be our way around it..


I would have loved to have seen the bevel and spine relationship before the razor was touched.
You also very well could have a near wwedge that the spine is worn down they are much more common :(


edit: Here is the thread the beginning deals with what you are asking about the end I have no idea

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...honed-day.html

Thanks Glen, I did read the linked thread. You are probably right in that it is a near wedge with hone wear. If I lay a straight edge spine to where the edge starts you can see the tiniest bit of light between it and the blade. Eyeballing it I missed that extremely slight concave.

I think I will just carry on playing with it like I have been then as I think I am almost there. If it baffles you how they did it then I am really operating in the dark here but I am used to that.

Before I had a go at it.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...onbob/WB-c.jpg

Bob

Yeppers a near wedge, Thanks for posting the pic,,

I would say yer on the right track with the tape, I tend to try to never go over 3 layers as it starts to get a little "Squishy" :) In the old days and even today it could be re-ground... But it you want to keep a smaller bevel and the wedge feel ya gotta do something with the spine..

I have thought many times of making a Brass Cheater strip, I know of one quick thinking guy on here, that used a cut Bic pen on one in the past :shrug:

You know I might go looking for some smaller diameter copper pipe to split lengthwise to make a copper cheater strip held in place by electrical tape. Thanks for the tip. So carry on it is. It might have an ugly looking uneven edge in the end but it will darn well be shaving. Man these things are different.

Bob

Seems like a tiny binder clip might be convenient. Anybody ever tried one? I'm looking at one of the 3/4" (small) clips from Office Max, and it looks a smidge too big, but I know I've seen smaller ones before.

Talking about these, for anyone who might know them by a different name.

Attachment 104563

On a true wedge I will start with 4 layers of tape. Be sure to get them as evenly draped across the spine as possible. The bevel may be as ugly as can be, but boy will they shave!

I want to see a photo of a "true wedge". A side shot and an in focus point end view.

I've had wedges dating from the late 1700s up through the Sheffields of the 1800s, all the way to the customs of today. I've never yet seen a wedge that didn't have some concave to enable honing. Here are two of the most well known. The W&B 'barber's use'.

The 'Celebrated' at the top has more concave than the tang stamped 'barbers use' below but they both have some. If they ain't a true wedge I don't know what is.

Not saying a 'true wedge' doesn't exist, but in this case .... I'm from Missouri .... you'll have to show me. :shrug:

Attachment 104570

Jimmy

There is just the tiniest bit of concave when I used a straight edge to recheck that I did not see with a mod 1 mark 1 eyeball.

nun2sharp

Yea, was careful with the tape to be as even across the spine as possible. Went back and redid it some more, quick test shave and I think I will leave as is for now. We'll see in the morning how great a shaver they can be. I know I sure am starting to like the 1/4 hollows I have so maybe a near wedge will grow on me.

Bob

here are a few pics of my true wedge..

Near wedge photos

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...near-wedge.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...wedge-side.jpg

Hard to tell by eyeball.

Bob

They are out there Jimmy, and one big PITA to hone as well, you have to remove material across the entire width of the blade. No easy honing here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by northpaw

Seems like a tiny binder clip might be convenient. Anybody ever tried one? I'm looking at one of the 3/4" (small) clips from Office Max, and it looks a smidge too big, but I know I've seen smaller ones before.

Talking about these, for anyone who might know them by a different name.

Attachment 104563

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I tried these once, they make an awful screetching noise on the hones and dont stay put very well! I do like the copper idea, 6 layers of tape is crazy even if necessary :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smalltank

here are a few pics of my true wedge..

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As wedgy as that looks, you can see the shiny parts on the spine and bevel. IOW, a true wedge has concavity. It has to or a person couldn't hone it properly. I've got a Wosty pipe and a W&B lather well etc that are wedges like that.

Call them true or whatever ..... there is enough concave that the spine and bevel lay on the hone but not the blade in between. If someone has one in which the belly of the blade.... between the edge and spine .... also hits the hone, either it was improperly honed in the past, or made incorrectly to begin with.

I have a near wedge Wade & Butcher, 7/8, that I recently purchased from ebay. It was not shave ready, especially after spending quite a bit of time sanding and polishing the blade and scales. I set the bevel on a Norton 4k side of a 4/8, then put it through a pyramid progression after it was popping hairs on my arm, then finished it on a Naniwa 12k. It took just as long as it's taken me to do the same thing with any other of the razors I have. One is a quarter hollow, the rest are hollows, extra hollows, and a singing hollow. The only "difficult" part of honing the near wedge was that it gave no feedback on the hone as far as feel and sound. I just trusted in form and execution, and whadayknow, it gives an excellent shave. Used this blade early this morning and my chin still feels BBS. I barely feel stubble on my sideburns where I went ATG. Am I missing something? Is it the lack of feedback that makes a near wedge difficult to hone, or is a Sheffield W&B just a gem to hone?

You couldn't tell by me, my W&B Sheffield near wedge was a bugger to hone and the reason for this thread. Never had that difficulty with the other razors I have. It could easily be extreme uneven hone wear as the culprit but the I have full hollows with buggered up uneven hone wear and they were not as bad to do. Seems more people find near wedges more of a challenge than other grinds. I find little difference between doing the full hollows and a couple of heavier grinds. However you manage to do it they all will shave decently.

Bob

I must have lucked out.

The thicker the grind the more steel to get down to that apex at the bevel. That is why guys recommend one or even more layers of tape to ease the process. Uneven hone wear can certainly make it more difficult. Quoting Lynn Abrams, "The real problem with wedges is that once the shoulders are honed down and the edge expands, it gets tricky on the number of strokes and to make sure you get or keep the edge even." Lynn recommended a 45 degree angle with X strokes for that situation. There is more on it in the SRP library in the honing razors section. "Lynn Abrams On Honing."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamSt8ght

I have a near wedge Wade & Butcher, 7/8, that I recently purchased from ebay. It was not shave ready, especially after spending quite a bit of time sanding and polishing the blade and scales. I set the bevel on a Norton 4k side of a 4/8, then put it through a pyramid progression after it was popping hairs on my arm, then finished it on a Naniwa 12k. It took just as long as it's taken me to do the same thing with any other of the razors I have. One is a quarter hollow, the rest are hollows, extra hollows, and a singing hollow. The only "difficult" part of honing the near wedge was that it gave no feedback on the hone as far as feel and sound. I just trusted in form and execution, and whadayknow, it gives an excellent shave. Used this blade early this morning and my chin still feels BBS. I barely feel stubble on my sideburns where I went ATG. Am I missing something? Is it the lack of feedback that makes a near wedge difficult to hone, or is a Sheffield W&B just a gem to hone?

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It is all in the spine wear, read the old thread and note Randy's post about the hardness of the spine,, Many of us have always thought that the spine on these older Sheffielders are soft.. Geometry is at work here and the spine wearing fast and haevy sets that off.. So No yer not missing anything in fact just the opposite :p your spine has steel :)

We can't add steel back to the spines so either Regrind, tape or deal with large bevels, if I owned a NOS or really nice older Sheffield it would never touch the hones without tape..

Jimmy

Yea, Lynn had that right for sure about honed down shoulders. Had to use circles in an X manner followed by swooping X strokes to make headway.

Bob

As bizarre as this near wedge honing experience was the out come was a very good shave this morning. It may not look purdy but it shaves and the satisfaction of putting it back in service is even better. I'll know what to expect if I ever get another heavy near wedge.

Bob

The closest I have to a 'true' wedge is a Nowill crosskeys which I don't think has been used.
It has no hone wear on the spine and it doesn't look like the bevel has been set.
I might send this one to Glen
I have some photos somewhere I'll try and get up on the forum soon.

That is the way you like to find them, with little or no hone wear. I would think that being the case it would not be too bad to hone up. Sure is a different shave from a full hollow.

Bob

it's actually a design on the blade...top n bottom..blade has near 0 honewear and near 0 pitting..great patina though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

As wedgy as that looks, you can see the shiny parts on the spine and bevel. IOW, a true wedge has concavity. It has to or a person couldn't hone it properly. I've got a Wosty pipe and a W&B lather well etc that are wedges like that.

Call them true or whatever ..... there is enough concave that the spine and bevel lay on the hone but not the blade in between. If someone has one in which the belly of the blade.... between the edge and spine .... also hits the hone, either it was improperly honed in the past, or made incorrectly to begin with.

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Just reviving this old thread as I have been playing for months now trying to improve the edge. It had a smile, took that out bread knifing it. Then fitted it quick and dirty with a fake spine so I did not have to grind more material off the blade when honing.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2..._DSC6529-c.jpg

The rubber tubing was taped to the blade. Through all the jigging around the poor girl has 3 bevels in some spots as I tried to get enough thickness in the spine. What a learning experience it has been. If you see something like this.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2..._DSC6527-a.jpg

Really think twice about how easy it will be to hone and consider a false spine might be the way to go. She might not look pretty but she shaves.

Bob