Norton V Coticule V Shapton V Thuringer V Etc Etc

Hi all,

In my never ending quest for perfection, and my constant confusion because of the afore mentioned quest, I was hoping to ask the question. What is the difference between all of these hones? And what would be the pros and cons of each? I suppose I just get lost with all the different brand names, and what each of them does in similar ways.

I of course want to purchase a hone of some type. One thing I have found difficult to find any info on is Thuringer stones. I have googled it, but nothing comes up on it.

Coticule on the other hand seems to be a big favourite with a lot of users. Is it best to try and get a combination type one(even though they are impossible to find) or are people happy to use the yellow and blue as separate items?

Lots and lots of questions I know, so I shall quit now while I'm ahead. I look forward to your help. :D

Norton and Shapton are lines of products ranging from coarse grits all the way to 30k or even finer for Shaptons.
-Norton 4k/8k combination stone is great for restoring e-bay blades and establishing bevels on new blades as factory honing jobs are generally inferior. It's fast-cutting and gives a great bang for the buck. They should also have finer finishing hones in the 12-15k grit
-There's a shapton for every application but they're generally pricier than Nortons, but highly recommended. They go as high as 30k in the Pro and Glass series.
-Coticules/Thuringens are fine finishers but slow cutters. My coticule didn't really impress me, so I'm using a 0.5 micron chromium oxide paste for fine finishing (32k grit equivalent). These aren't exactly brand names but they do indicate the type of stones. If I were you I'd just use the yellow for fine finishing work and get something else for rough work. They are 9-12k grit.

Tony Miller here probably knows more about the Thuringers than anybody. He'll probably chime in here shortly.

The differences between honing materials and techniques sometimes has more to do with process than product. As far as end-product goes, everyone is after more or less the same thing: a clean even bevel and a highly polished cutting edge.

And probably everyone would say they're after perfection. It's just that, for some people, perfection is, say, the simplicity of using just the Norton combo stone, which can bring any ebay razor up to shave-sharp - and many here say that the 8K side used well provides all the finish you need. For others, perfection is having a whole range of hones, knowing them well and using them in specialized ways. Others, like me, like natural stones and find them appealing because they're romantic and traditional (and beautiful in the case of the natural Belgian blue-yellow combo), and like the feedback you get from a slurry, and like the simplicity of a stone you don't have to soak. (I will readily concede that they are expensive, can be slow and impractical if you're honing tons of razors, and can apparently be unpredictable in terms of quality.) For some people here, perfection means knowing what you'll get every time, and getting it fast, as is apparently the case with a shapton.

Perfection for one veteran of this site has always meant being able to hone dry (i.e. certain barber hones and pasted paddles), so he can sit casually at his desk instead of standing at a work bench waiting for a big yellow brick to fully soak. I mention this so you'll have an idea of just how idiosyncratic are the preferences involved in these decisions.

If you don't know where your idiosyncracies are going to take you, and you don't want to spend a bunch of money finding out, get one of Tony Miller's top-quality bench hones, and put some chromium oxide or diamond paste on it. That'll keep as good a finish on a razor as any other method, and in the meantime if you come to decide you prefer something else, you're out, like, seven bucks.

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Originally Posted by johnmw1

One thing I have found difficult to find any info on is Thuringer stones. I have googled it, but nothing comes up on it.

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Maybe because you got the name wrong? Try "thuringen"...

Nenad

Even with the spelling right, there's not much out there on Thuringens. I remember trying to find out about them a while ago, and pretty much all searches links and leads led back to SRP, and ultimately, to Tony.

He's been testing them and apparently they're as fine as the old eschers and coticules. That says a lot coming from Tony. He's about the most honest businessman you could hope to find, and temperamentally incapable of selling something he doesn't 100% believe in.

Just to say that I have spoken to Tony, as he will be supplying me with strop etc.
He said do a search for Manufactem Thuringens but that brings nothing up for me as well. He also reckons Kees may know a lot about them.

I do also see other methods of sharpening such as scary sharp, which I forgot to put in the initial thread, and a know some people swear by this method also.

Perhaps I'm getting bogged down in the technicalities of the whole process, but I am very interested in hearing what other people think about this subject, and the dos and donts. As an ex chippie I have an absolute must for sharp tools, it was in my training.

John

I will have a better translation of this later but this is a review mentioning another review on Nassuer razor from Germany. A little hard to follow but here goes:

<<< In the meantime also again a Thuringian wasserabziehstein is available, which is obvious by excellent quality. I quote for this the moderator "Gerhard" of the InterNet forum www.NassRasur.com. "beside the synthetic stones from Japan, by right praised, and almost classical Belgian breaking into would like I to you today a further natural stone most warmly to recommend: The Thueringer wasserabziehstein also this stone was decades ago a far common and popular stone for razors (... hobeleisen, butcher measurer...) (one finds which with ebay occasionally). Because the quarry was not no more used however for GDR times and had broken in, it is as far as possible guessed/advised in oblivion. Now it is again promoted some months there! I ordered myself and find a beautiful bank stone him to class. One can say without the appropriate laboratory only so by feel, but I feel it in such a way: It is in any case more finely than the Japanese 8000er, it is also at least as fine as yellow Belgian breaking into. It has super a suitable hardness, not too softly and not too hard (as for instance the Arkansas). He accesses beautifully, but with really super fine grain. The sharpness is absolutely class. Completely interesting: The stone will like wildly to Israel exported, because it is considered there as the stone for sharpening the measurers, with which the cutting are accomplished (more one does not have to say probably). For my bank stone (245 x 40 x 24) I have? 58,50 (inclusive VAT zzgl. dispatch) pays - a small Anreiber was also attached. >>>

Courtesy of "Babblefish" translator

Tony

Some basic translation of the translation: The Belgian "breaking into" is refering to the "Brocken" the German version of "Bout" which are the random sized Belgian pieces. Banlstone means larger, sawn rectangular pieces. He describes it as finer than the Japanese 8000 stone and at least as fine as the Coticule. The reference to Israel is that these stones are favored by Rabbis for sharpening the knives used for ritual slaughter for kosher meats.

The "not too hard, not too soft" has a bit to do with the stones color. The grey/blue (more of a charcoal grey/black) are the hardest, but still soft by Arkansas standards. There is a yellow/green (more of a grey with pea green cast) that is much softer and IS the favored stone among the Rabbis.

Kees has commented on the darker Thuringen he bought from Manufactem in Germany and I think Randy Tuttle has one as well. Most of what I will be importing (if the damn box ever gets here) will be the darker stones for now. The yellow/green has been quarried but we are yet to know how it will saw up and into what size stones.

My small first trial shipment left Germany nearly 2 weeks ago and should arrive shortly. As soon as they land and I check them for quality many mre will be sent. I just like to play things safe. So if you miss the first batch, no worries. There are rocks for everyone!

Thanks,
Tony

From my own experience I would agree that the Norton 4K/8K is really all you need. You can bring a razor that is in pretty dreadful shape back to life with it and get it to fine shaving condition and you can keep well honed razors shaving fine.

Having said that and owning an assortment of stones both natural and man-made I have to say that, yes its nice to be able to put that ultimate degree of keenness on to a razor and in honing different types and grinds of razors I've found that some razors seem to respond better to cetain media than other razors do. Why? I don't know but I've found it to be the case.

Its really no different than say shaving soaps. Williams at $1.50 a cake will do the job yet most of us spend way more for a fancy cake because it smells nicer or gives more lather or doesn't have to be refreshed as much. Its the same with brushes and many other things.

I think if your just going to have a few razors and need to maintain them you just need the basics. You just have to decide how you want to go, stones or pasted strops. If your going to be doing restorations then you need an arsenal of stones and if your a perfectionist who has to have the ultimate in quality then your going to be buying ever finer stones to get that ultimate degree of quality the same as buying a Simson's brush or Castle Forbes cream or a Maestro razor. So the ultimate question is how deep are your pockets?

I have a large collection of hones both manmade and natural.
From them I have observed that the Escher, Thuringian and Water hone are all either the same or close to it. I base this comparing stones with different lables that are exactly the same in color and texture. The colors range from green/gray to dark blue/slate for each of the above mentioned stones. I do believe that they are all from the same geological formation. They are all slate based and they all lap about the same. The name differences I attribute to nothing more than marketing.
A tentative conclusion is that the green/gray is a bit finer than the blue/slate colored, but that is not to say that they do a better job on all razors. It is also interesting to note that the Belgians and the Escher class are both slate formation based and are approx 300+ miles apart.
There seem to be variations in both of the classes of natural stones but that is not surprising.

Just my two cents,:)

Thank you everyone for your input on this subject, you all have such a wealth of knowledge.

Now thanks to Tony's search on the subject, and a translation as well, I at least now know what a Thuringen is.

Do many people here use Shaptons? Just curious because they never get mentioned very often. Not that I have seen anyway.

John

I've got the 8k and 15k Shapton Pro. Shapton apparently recommends their glass series of hones for razors, and they may well be right (or maybe not, I doubt anyone there actually shaves with a straight and would really know).

Unlike the norton, you don't have to soak them, so they're pretty easy to haul out and use for touch-ups and odd honing chores. I personally feel that the shapton 8k is finer than the norton 8k. The shaptons are very aggressive hones for their grit number. Both of these hones are very difficult for me to handle, because they're so aggressive there's a tremendous bite on the blade so the blade wants to hop down the stone instead of sliding smoothly. So I use both hands on the blade, but this tends to increase the pressure slightly which increases the bite. On very hard blades the shapton works great, the bite is manageable and the fast cutting nature of the hones is greatly appreciated. But on the softer vintage sheffield blades I have a hard time making them cut slowly enough to produce a good edge.

I used the 15k last night on the Clauss barber's razor I shaved with this morning (see the SOTD forum). The razor was shave ready when it arrived (either from the factory or from the former owner - the hone wear was imperceptible), but I buffed the blade with Flitz for a few minutes which dulled the blade. But the shapton 15k put an outstanding edge on the razor in about 20-25 laps, and the Chrome Oxide paddle finished the job in another 20 laps.

Mparker,

Having given the info you have just supplied I think I can rule out Shaptons for the time being, or until I become more familiar with the whole honing process.

Having just read a very interesting old thread from about a month ago which discussed the ins and outs of coticules and the varying differences in what was considered good ones or not so good ones, and the apparent difficulty in obtaining these stones, I also will cross these of my list, unless someone has a proven one for sale, that they would like to offer me.

Tony Miller has only yesterday updated some info on the Thuringer stones that he has been waiting on, so I shall sit on the fence a bit longer, and see what gives on these stones, but it does seem promising.

John

You've gotten great advice here for a guy who asked such a wide open question. And you didn't even tell us what you intend to do- jusst hone your razor, restore Ebay razors, etc.

Most of us havw a Norton 4/8. It's agood place to start, and it will give you all the capability you need to maintain your razors.

The only other thing I'd recommend is a fine hone, like a Swaty. the most efficient way to maintain a razor is just to strop brfore each use. When that fails to restore full sharpness, do a few round trips (less than 5) on the Swaty to refresh it, and you're back in busines. The Norton is a big stone and needs to be soaked before use. You on't want to do that for 5 swipes. You can even keep the Swaty at the sink in case you need a liitle hone touchup while shaving.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

You've gotten great advice here for a guy who asked such a wide open question. And you didn't even tell us what you intend to do- just hone your razor, restore Ebay razors, etc.

Most of us have a Norton 4/8. It's a good place to start, and it will give you all the capability you need to maintain your razors.

The only other thing I'd recommend is a fine hone, like a Swaty. the most efficient way to maintain a razor is just to strop before each use. When that fails to restore full sharpness, do a few round trips (less than 5) on the Swaty to refresh it, and you're back in business. The Norton is a big stone and needs to be soaked before use. You don't want to do that for 5 swipes. You can even keep the Swaty at the sink in case you need a little hone touch up while shaving.

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HI Joe,

Thanks for your comments, yeah you are right I did neglect to say what I wanted to do in regards to sharpening, so yes it was a fairly wide open question.

In essence I only want to maintain my own razors, but that is not to say that I may be brave enough some time in the future to buy some razors off ebay.

Your mention of a swaty got me having a look on ebay, and there are two on there at the moment, but I don't know whether they are good or bad, I suppose I'm not sure what to look for. One of them seems to have cracks across the face of it, and the other seems to have rounded edges. Failing that not sure where else to look unless some one here has one for sale?

John

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Originally Posted by johnmw1

HI Joe,

Thanks for your comments, yeah you are right I did neglect to say what I wanted to do in regards to sharpening, so yes it was a fairly wide open question.

In essence I only want to maintain my own razors, but that is not to say that I may be brave enough some time in the future to buy some razors off ebay.

Your mention of a swaty got me having a look on ebay, and there are two on there at the moment, but I don't know whether they are good or bad, I suppose I'm not sure what to look for. One of them seems to have cracks across the face of it, and the other seems to have rounded edges. Failing that not sure where else to look unless some one here has one for sale?

John

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Look for one that has a smooth face, no chips or cracks.

If you're not sure contact Tilly (redtrader99.com- go to her site). She has many new old stock barber hones. Tell her you want something like a Swaty, and she'll make a recommendation. Or talk to her for a while, and you'll get what you really need.

The differences between stones are significant. The Belgians vs the Nortons are night and day. I use both, sell both and can tell you the Nortons abrade steel against fixed particles that get smoother as you hone while the Belgians create an abrasive slurry which cuts faster and polishes the steel smoother. It's a completely different way to get an edge on a razor or anything else. The belgians don't have to be soaked as they don't absorb water; all of the action takes place on the surface in the slurry.

I currently have two folks who have purchased coticules and blues who are looking at them under high magnification in materials laboratories. They're both saying there is something quite different going on with the belgian influence on the steel i.e. no ragged edges on the steel and no waves in the bevel on the edge of the blade. They've both used other stones prior to going to the belgians.

The belgians come in a variety of colors, shades, and with various amounts of "figure" in them. Regardless of all that diversity in this very natural product, the result of their work on a straight razor is an incredibly sharp edge and results are what important. The differences in colors, shades, and figure don't seem to play such an important role with the Europeans as they do with some folks on this list. In fact, if you look at the video of them making straight razors at Dovo, you'll see a woman honing a straight on a belgian coticule that has black lines going across the stone. That is "figure" and is more or less a surface effect. Her honing technique is also completely different from what we use here in the States.

The belgian combination stones are called "natural" stones and I have about half a dozen in stock in 8x3 and 6x2 and they are truly beautiful stones. I don't put them on the website because they don't come in either often or predictably and I don't like to take folks' money for something I don't have in stock and don't like to sell what I don't have. If anyone wants a "natural", let me know and I'll keep you on a waiting list if I don't have them in stock. When I do get them, they don't stick around long!

Howard