Thread: Norton V Coticule V Shapton V Thuringer V Etc Etc

Hi all,

In my never ending quest for perfection, and my constant confusion because of the afore mentioned quest, I was hoping to ask the question. What is the difference between all of these hones? And what would be the pros and cons of each? I suppose I just get lost with all the different brand names, and what each of them does in similar ways.

I of course want to purchase a hone of some type. One thing I have found difficult to find any info on is Thuringer stones. I have googled it, but nothing comes up on it.

Coticule on the other hand seems to be a big favourite with a lot of users. Is it best to try and get a combination type one(even though they are impossible to find) or are people happy to use the yellow and blue as separate items?

Lots and lots of questions I know, so I shall quit now while I'm ahead. I look forward to your help.

Norton and Shapton are lines of products ranging from coarse grits all the way to 30k or even finer for Shaptons.
-Norton 4k/8k combination stone is great for restoring e-bay blades and establishing bevels on new blades as factory honing jobs are generally inferior. It's fast-cutting and gives a great bang for the buck. They should also have finer finishing hones in the 12-15k grit
-There's a shapton for every application but they're generally pricier than Nortons, but highly recommended. They go as high as 30k in the Pro and Glass series.
-Coticules/Thuringens are fine finishers but slow cutters. My coticule didn't really impress me, so I'm using a 0.5 micron chromium oxide paste for fine finishing (32k grit equivalent). These aren't exactly brand names but they do indicate the type of stones. If I were you I'd just use the yellow for fine finishing work and get something else for rough work. They are 9-12k grit.

Tony Miller here probably knows more about the Thuringers than anybody. He'll probably chime in here shortly.

The differences between honing materials and techniques sometimes has more to do with process than product. As far as end-product goes, everyone is after more or less the same thing: a clean even bevel and a highly polished cutting edge.

And probably everyone would say they're after perfection. It's just that, for some people, perfection is, say, the simplicity of using just the Norton combo stone, which can bring any ebay razor up to shave-sharp - and many here say that the 8K side used well provides all the finish you need. For others, perfection is having a whole range of hones, knowing them well and using them in specialized ways. Others, like me, like natural stones and find them appealing because they're romantic and traditional (and beautiful in the case of the natural Belgian blue-yellow combo), and like the feedback you get from a slurry, and like the simplicity of a stone you don't have to soak. (I will readily concede that they are expensive, can be slow and impractical if you're honing tons of razors, and can apparently be unpredictable in terms of quality.) For some people here, perfection means knowing what you'll get every time, and getting it fast, as is apparently the case with a shapton.

Perfection for one veteran of this site has always meant being able to hone dry (i.e. certain barber hones and pasted paddles), so he can sit casually at his desk instead of standing at a work bench waiting for a big yellow brick to fully soak. I mention this so you'll have an idea of just how idiosyncratic are the preferences involved in these decisions.

If you don't know where your idiosyncracies are going to take you, and you don't want to spend a bunch of money finding out, get one of Tony Miller's top-quality bench hones, and put some chromium oxide or diamond paste on it. That'll keep as good a finish on a razor as any other method, and in the meantime if you come to decide you prefer something else, you're out, like, seven bucks.

Originally Posted by johnmw1

One thing I have found difficult to find any info on is Thuringer stones. I have googled it, but nothing comes up on it.

Maybe because you got the name wrong? Try "thuringen"...

Nenad

Even with the spelling right, there's not much out there on Thuringens. I remember trying to find out about them a while ago, and pretty much all searches links and leads led back to SRP, and ultimately, to Tony.

He's been testing them and apparently they're as fine as the old eschers and coticules. That says a lot coming from Tony. He's about the most honest businessman you could hope to find, and temperamentally incapable of selling something he doesn't 100% believe in.

Just to say that I have spoken to Tony, as he will be supplying me with strop etc.
He said do a search for Manufactem Thuringens but that brings nothing up for me as well. He also reckons Kees may know a lot about them.

I do also see other methods of sharpening such as scary sharp, which I forgot to put in the initial thread, and a know some people swear by this method also.

Perhaps I'm getting bogged down in the technicalities of the whole process, but I am very interested in hearing what other people think about this subject, and the dos and donts. As an ex chippie I have an absolute must for sharp tools, it was in my training.

John

I will have a better translation of this later but this is a review mentioning another review on Nassuer razor from Germany. A little hard to follow but here goes:

<<< In the meantime also again a Thuringian wasserabziehstein is available, which is obvious by excellent quality. I quote for this the moderator "Gerhard" of the InterNet forum www.NassRasur.com. "beside the synthetic stones from Japan, by right praised, and almost classical Belgian breaking into would like I to you today a further natural stone most warmly to recommend: The Thueringer wasserabziehstein also this stone was decades ago a far common and popular stone for razors (... hobeleisen, butcher measurer...) (one finds which with ebay occasionally). Because the quarry was not no more used however for GDR times and had broken in, it is as far as possible guessed/advised in oblivion. Now it is again promoted some months there! I ordered myself and find a beautiful bank stone him to class. One can say without the appropriate laboratory only so by feel, but I feel it in such a way: It is in any case more finely than the Japanese 8000er, it is also at least as fine as yellow Belgian breaking into. It has super a suitable hardness, not too softly and not too hard (as for instance the Arkansas). He accesses beautifully, but with really super fine grain. The sharpness is absolutely class. Completely interesting: The stone will like wildly to Israel exported, because it is considered there as the stone for sharpening the measurers, with which the cutting are accomplished (more one does not have to say probably). For my bank stone (245 x 40 x 24) I have? 58,50 (inclusive VAT zzgl. dispatch) pays - a small Anreiber was also attached. >>>

Courtesy of "Babblefish" translator

Tony

Some basic translation of the translation: The Belgian "breaking into" is refering to the "Brocken" the German version of "Bout" which are the random sized Belgian pieces. Banlstone means larger, sawn rectangular pieces. He describes it as finer than the Japanese 8000 stone and at least as fine as the Coticule. The reference to Israel is that these stones are favored by Rabbis for sharpening the knives used for ritual slaughter for kosher meats.

The "not too hard, not too soft" has a bit to do with the stones color. The grey/blue (more of a charcoal grey/black) are the hardest, but still soft by Arkansas standards. There is a yellow/green (more of a grey with pea green cast) that is much softer and IS the favored stone among the Rabbis.

Kees has commented on the darker Thuringen he bought from Manufactem in Germany and I think Randy Tuttle has one as well. Most of what I will be importing (if the damn box ever gets here) will be the darker stones for now. The yellow/green has been quarried but we are yet to know how it will saw up and into what size stones.

My small first trial shipment left Germany nearly 2 weeks ago and should arrive shortly. As soon as they land and I check them for quality many mre will be sent. I just like to play things safe. So if you miss the first batch, no worries. There are rocks for everyone!

Thanks,
Tony

From my own experience I would agree that the Norton 4K/8K is really all you need. You can bring a razor that is in pretty dreadful shape back to life with it and get it to fine shaving condition and you can keep well honed razors shaving fine.

Having said that and owning an assortment of stones both natural and man-made I have to say that, yes its nice to be able to put that ultimate degree of keenness on to a razor and in honing different types and grinds of razors I've found that some razors seem to respond better to cetain media than other razors do. Why? I don't know but I've found it to be the case.

Its really no different than say shaving soaps. Williams at $1.50 a cake will do the job yet most of us spend way more for a fancy cake because it smells nicer or gives more lather or doesn't have to be refreshed as much. Its the same with brushes and many other things.

I think if your just going to have a few razors and need to maintain them you just need the basics. You just have to decide how you want to go, stones or pasted strops. If your going to be doing restorations then you need an arsenal of stones and if your a perfectionist who has to have the ultimate in quality then your going to be buying ever finer stones to get that ultimate degree of quality the same as buying a Simson's brush or Castle Forbes cream or a Maestro razor. So the ultimate question is how deep are your pockets?

I have a large collection of hones both manmade and natural.
From them I have observed that the Escher, Thuringian and Water hone are all either the same or close to it. I base this comparing stones with different lables that are exactly the same in color and texture. The colors range from green/gray to dark blue/slate for each of the above mentioned stones. I do believe that they are all from the same geological formation. They are all slate based and they all lap about the same. The name differences I attribute to nothing more than marketing.
A tentative conclusion is that the green/gray is a bit finer than the blue/slate colored, but that is not to say that they do a better job on all razors. It is also interesting to note that the Belgians and the Escher class are both slate formation based and are approx 300+ miles apart.
There seem to be variations in both of the classes of natural stones but that is not surprising.

Just my two cents,