Escher makes edge worse after Norton 8k...why?

It's been a while since I posted here, but this is an issue that's been nagging me too much and I had to come back to ask. Can anyone tell me why a Y/G Escher would make the edge on a razor worse after the Norton 8k? When I come off the 8k (usually it takes 35-50 strokes after the Norton 4k), the edge is at a place where it can shave comfortably. Not amazingly well, but pretty good.

From there, I take the razor to my Escher and it comes out really harsh and drags on hairs. I've tried the Escher with less strokes, more strokes, less slurry, more slurry, diluting the slurry, leaving the slurry on, no slurry. Always the same.

I remember Sham telling me a long time ago that to get the most out of my Escher, I should put a softer J-Nat or coticule in between the Escher and the Norton. I did that very early on and got some amazing edges. That'd be great if I still had those stones, but I sold them, because I had seen numerous more experienced people finish razors on Eschers straight from Norton 8k's. So why am I having this problem now? Anyone have any suggestions?

Is the Escher 100% (or near as possible) flat? If that isn't an issue, then maybe too much pressure? :shrug:

I would say the problem is experience. If you removed stones between the 8k and the Escher and no longer getting the edge you like it must be you need to more practice to get the result. I know some members here get on Escher right after 8k Norton so it is doable.

It isn't really a grit or hone that you have to be at, it is a "state" of the edge that everyone is talking about before you go to the Escher


Now to be honest Lynn and myself have done the one stone honing systems and both of us have used only a bevel set and then either an Escher or Thuringen to get to the end results so honestly you don't need any stones between a solid bevel set and a Escher or most any other finisher..

Many like to put a number in there ie: 8k, 10k, 12k, Coticule etc: but you just have to have a sharp shave ready edge to move up in grit :)

Most often just like yesterday I go either 1-3-8 Naniwa or 1-4-8 Norton and then my Escher, but I am quite confident in that 8k edge

I am one of those poor souls who has to go from an 8k norton to an escher with no stepping stone in between. So I would speculate that it is either the edge is not as finely honed off the 8k as it ought to be .... to see improvement after the y/g escher, or it may be a technique issue. Also, speculating again, it may be your expectations ? All I know from my own experience is that I make sure I'm getting a DFS after the 8k alone before I move up in grit.

Thanks for the responses everyone.

To add some more info, it isn't flatness or honing pressure (I've tried light, very light, and no pressure). I can get pretty solid shaves off of my 8k edge, too. Again, the 8k edge is not as amazing as those perfect feeling Escher edges, but it is very smooth on the face, cuts hair easily, etc...

The issue isn't that I'm not getting anything out of the Escher. It's that the Escher is making things worse. I'm wondering what you guys would recommend I pay attention to in order to change that.

HUH

Honestly I am a bit stumped,,, tried other razors ???

Lap the Escher hard and and then smooth back up ????

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Originally Posted by heirkb

Thanks for the responses everyone.

To add some more info, it isn't flatness or honing pressure (I've tried light, very light, and no pressure). I can get pretty solid shaves off of my 8k edge, too. Again, the 8k edge is not as amazing as those perfect feeling Escher edges, but it is very smooth on the face, cuts hair easily, etc...

The issue isn't that I'm not getting anything out of the Escher. It's that the Escher is making things worse. I'm wondering what you guys would recommend I pay attention to in order to change that.

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So you've gotten good shaves off the 8k alone, and you've gotten shaves with "perfect feeling Escher edges". Is this new phenomenon of the Escher making things worse happening with more than one razor ? Anything changed in the routine ? If it is with one razor maybe go back to the beginning and start from square 1 ?

I only have 2 razors now (I know, blasphemy), but I remember having this issue in the past with other razors. I only got those perfect feeling edges when I would go from 8k to some intermediary stone to Escher.

I have a similar issue with going from my Norton 8k to my Ozuku from Maksim. I've seen members here (like holli4pirating) get amazing edges going from an 8k shave ready edge to a hard J-Nat and I haven't had luck there either.

I know all this sounds like my 8k edge might be the culprit. Thing is, I've shaved with an 8k edge from more experienced guys here and mine held up against there's. I must be doing something stupid on the finishers.

EDIT: I'm going to lap the Escher, kill the edge on the razor, and start again from Shapton 1k to Norton 4k to Norton 8k.

I was having a similar problem with one of my razors, and in the end it all goes back to the bevel not being set as well as I had thought. That being said, that particular razor just won't get sharp for me no matter what I do..... so it _could_ always be the razor.

Sounds like something Ihave gone thru. Two things or one of the things as mentioned above. If I stay away from my stones too long, you loose that sense of feel. Secondly, I have had fits with a Gold Bug here lately and have come to the conclusion that it was "restored" (not by me) and can't handle a edge over about 6K before it crumbles on the first wtg pass.

Do you use magnification to literally see what is going on with the edge?

My fail-safe that really works on every razor I own is a progression on Shapton GS's thru 16K, then to a water only y/g Escher. This edge is perfect for my face bordering crisp, but "just right" for me.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Sounds like something Ihave gone thru. Two things or one of the things as mentioned above. If I stay away from my stones too long, you loose that sense of feel. Secondly, I have had fits with a Gold Bug here lately and have come to the conclusion that it was "restored" (not by me) and can't handle a edge over about 6K before it crumbles on the first wtg pass.

Do you use magnification to literally see what is going on with the edge?

My fail-safe that really works on every razor I own is a progression on Shapton GS's thru 16K, then to a water only y/g Escher. This edge is perfect for my face bordering crisp, but "just right" for me.

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Shooter, sending you a pm about the bug

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Originally Posted by heirkb

Thanks for the responses everyone.

To add some more info, it isn't flatness or honing pressure (I've tried light, very light, and no pressure). I can get pretty solid shaves off of my 8k edge, too. Again, the 8k edge is not as amazing as those perfect feeling Escher edges, but it is very smooth on the face, cuts hair easily, etc...

The issue isn't that I'm not getting anything out of the Escher. It's that the Escher is making things worse. I'm wondering what you guys would recommend I pay attention to in order to change that.

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Would it be possible for you to send your Escher to one of the professional honers and get a full evaluation of that stone to find out if the stone itself has issues? I would have difficulty faulting a genuine Escher. My guess is that there is a flaw in your technique or your progression.

JERRY
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Have you tried less strokes on the Escher ? Maybe your 8k edge is 9/10 broke & you're adding 1/10.
Might only want 5-10 strokes after 8k ?

Watch shams video on using the escher half off your hand so you have proper pressure?

I suggest lapping both your 8K and Escher.

Lapping is not so much about keeping things flat, as it is about exposing fresh abrasive. I usually lap my Eschers with 2000 grit Silicon Carbide sand paper.

Tim Z.

This seems to be a recurring theme on the forum this month. As of late, I've been using a B/G Escher. I have no trouble taking even a sub par shaver, and touching it up on the Escher like you would a Barber's hone. I generate some cutting slurry, and do sets of 20, and dilute, finishing with water, Like the one stone honing......Or come right off the 8k. I think coming off a Jnat, you'd smooth out some of the harshness....but you shouldn't have to as a rule.
I also use the Escher coming off the Shapton 16k.

I too had an issue with an Ozuku. I had it tested, turned out to be Uber Hard. I need to use a Kiita slurry on it. Funny thing is I could get a nice edge, but shaving upwards from my chin to my cheekbone, it would leave stubble. Figure that one out....

Just for the sake of experimenting, try 10 weight of the blade strokes using a very light slurry on your Escher followed by another 7-10 using only water and see if this helps you any.

Have fun

(Guess we were posting at the same time Rich.........:D)

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Originally Posted by zib

This seems to be a recurring theme on the forum this month.

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Count me as one of the recent whiners. However, the edge off of the y/g escher that remains in transit to an unspoken new owner provided a much better edge than any 8k stone that I have, keener and much more comfortable. I was just being unreasonable expecting it to provide a magical cosmic experience vs. some of the other naturals that I have that are also very fine but with which I have a lot more experience.

It definitely improved the edge off of the two coticules that I have, and it improved the off-the-stone keenness vs. a vintage translucent arkansas that I have.

So I'm guessing that the problem in this instance is either the use of the escher, or possibly the razor. If lloyds was giving odds on this, that's what I'd take until the payoff was really big on the "it's the stone" side.

I have an Escher on the way......Watching this thread with great interest........Good advise here!
I wonder?????? 10 strokes on CroOX??????? :D

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Originally Posted by Tim Zowada

I suggest lapping both your 8K and Escher.

Lapping is not so much about keeping things flat, as it is about exposing fresh abrasive. I usually lap my Eschers with 2000 grit Silicon Carbide sand paper.

Tim Z.

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But then again if the stone is dished how do you get a straight bevel? If the stone is dished the bevel will be convex, you end up with a "u" rather than a "v".

BTW I do agree that the stone(s) may need lapped.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

I wonder?????? 10 strokes on CroOX??????? :D

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I doubt it... Chromium Oxide won't do much for an edge that's not there yet. Unless you have a proper bevel already set, anything finer than 4000 grit will take forever and a half to give you a proper edge and I have yet to hear of someone who set the bevel and got a shave-ready razor from scratch by using only pastes, regardless of the grit (could be proven wrong here lol). Generally speaking, for the sake of the argument let's assume we're using Norton products, 1000 is for setting the bevel, 4000 to finish setting it with a slower cutting rate and start polishing it, 8000 is already good enough for a final polish even though higher grits give a smoother shave.

You shouldn't use chromium oxide until the edge is already shaving well and with a reasonable degree of comfort. The possibilities raised here are that the edge off the 8000 isn't as good as it should be, that one or both stones aren't flat enough and that the OP is creating a wire edge. We'll see what happens when the OP addresses all of those concerns, based on the excellent advice received here.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

I doubt it... Chromium Oxide won't do much for an edge that's not there yet. Unless you have a proper bevel already set, anything finer than 4000 grit will take forever and a half to give you a proper edge and I have yet to hear of someone who set the bevel and got a shave-ready razor from scratch by using only pastes, regardless of the grit (could be proven wrong here lol). Generally speaking, for the sake of the argument let's assume we're using Norton products, 1000 is for setting the bevel, 4000 to finish setting it with a slower cutting rate and start polishing it, 8000 is already good enough for a final polish even though higher grits give a smoother shave.

You shouldn't use chromium oxide until the edge is already shaving well and with a reasonable degree of comfort. The possibilities raised here are that the edge off the 8000 isn't as good as it should be, that one or both stones aren't flat enough and that the OP is creating a wire edge. We'll see what happens when the OP addresses all of those concerns, based on the excellent advice received here.

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That was a joke! I am very interested in this thread. I do wonder what type of razor the OP is honing. It would seem much experience with slurry would be key to success with the Escher, as Lynn suggested, if indeed the razor was great off the 8000. It would seem the only way the edge would be made worse would be if too much slurry were used?

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

That was a joke! I am very interested in this thread. I do wonder what type of razor the OP is honing. It would seem much experience with slurry would be key to success with the Escher, as Lynn suggested, if indeed the razor was great off the 8000. It would seem the only way the edge would be made worse would be if too much slurry were used?

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Lol now I see it. Was fuming mad (not at any SRP member) in the morning, so I was working in diminished capacity :cool:

Are you sure your hone is an actual Escher :dropjaw:

Just a little thought, add a layer of tape after the 8000 then go to the Escher, to create a little tiny bevel to ween out the influence of the 8000. And to see exactly what your Escher gives the edge.

just a thought that might reveal something...

Nathaniel