Take two: Learning how to set bevel - again.

Hi,
I tried to learn how to hone (set bevels) about 9 months ago and did not really learn. Partly because I had a bad razor to practise on. I took the advise of others a got a Maxard razor from Glen. It has been great and I have used it for this time without honing, just stropping. Now I can say that I think I know how to shave with a straight, but still learning. The edge of the Maxard is not holding up forever so I need to learn how to hone my razors.

At the moment I am practicing on a swedish frameback and I got it to a hair popping sharp but only after honing a ton on the 3/8k (maybe like 300 laps total).

I have few problems and the hardest one is knowing when to lay off the pressure while bevel setting on coarser stones. I am using the 1k king and it seems every time when I get the edge to exhibit some kind of drag on the TNT then shortly after it will feel completely dull again and wont cut hair either. I noticed that they king stone needs to lapped every 20-30 passes as it looses its bite very fast.
I had a scale to measure the pressure I am using so I know I am not using way too much, but it seems every time I some how overshoot the bevel setting stage. That seems odd to me because watching the videos by Lynn and Glen, you can see that they use a lot of pressure and the swarf turn grey really fast while bevel setting. What should I look for/feel as I approach bevel set on the hone? I just never get there on the 1k.

Then the two other issues relate to feeling. First, even though that edge is popping hairs off of my arm, I can not feel a thing on the TPT. (Maybe just a hint of stickyness after stropping the frameback). When I got the razor honed by glen I remember that the edge felt sticky on the TPT. Now that is telling me that my bevel is still not thin enough, and thus not set. But how do I get there?
The other feel related issue is feeling the edge on the hone. Glen says he can feel a bunch of things when he is honing (like rough spots). I can not feel diddley squat. What should I look for?

Thanks, for any help.

The first 2 steps of honing a dull full-hollow razor that needs a bevel set: (Note that Swedish steel can sometimes take much longer than Sheffield steel. Also note that a heavier grind will take more circles. However many more depends on the razor and grind)

1k hone - PRESSURE ONLY, CIRCLES ONLY - slurry first, then water only when edge feels like it will coarsely shave wet arm hair. Stay on this stone until you can cut wet arm hair along the entire edge. Doesn't have to be a comfortable arm hair shave, just that it does it. Full-hollows may only need 30 circles each side. Swedish blades or full wedges may need 100 (or many more) each side.



Step 2, with a 3k stone:
1. heavy slurry and pressure, 20 circles each side.
2. light slurry and pressure, 20 circles each side.
3. light slurry and light pressure, 20 circles each side.
4. NO slurry and light pressure, 20 circles each side.

Step 3, with an 8k stone:

1. heavy slurry, light pressure, 20 circles
2. light slurry, light pressure, 20 circles
3. no slurry, no pressure, 30 x-strokes.


Just keep in mind that until you get to the 8k stone, all you're doing is the grunt work. There's not much room for finesse in the courser stones. Just remove the material and get on with it. Hope this helps.

PS - you never have to lay off the pressure with a 1k stone. Just lay off the slurry.

Bevel setting can be pretty tricky but the king is a good hone. The Swedish steel is pretty hard but the frame-backs are skinny and will take an edge pretty quickly.

For starters I would leave circles out of the equation for now. While circles are an effective stroke and you will want to added later. Right now it is just adding an added element.

Now is your frame-back a straight edge or does it have a slight smile. Many of the Swedish frame-backs have very slight smiles.

If the edge is straight I would use a standard x stroke. Basically the same stroke you have learned stropping just with the edge leading this time. I would do:
20 laps with pressure
10 laps no pressure
Test edge (I like trying to dry shave arm hair. TNT is good to and TPT)
If the edge doesn't pass do another
20 laps with pressure
10 laps no pressure
Test edge

You can continue like this till your passing the test. I recommended using multiple test. If you use the TNT and pass remember you need to do more laps to smooth out the damage caused by the TNT.

After you get the bevel set I recommend following the advice in this wiki post by Lynn http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...d_honing_guide

800 or 1k=sets the bevel
3k or 4k=sharpens the bevel
8kor 10k=polishes the bevel
12k=final finisher...optional

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

Hi,
I tried to learn how to hone (set bevels) about 9 months ago
.....
. It has been great and I have used it for this time without honing, just stropping. Now I can say that I think I know how to shave with a straight, but still learning. The edge of the Maxard is not holding up forever so I need to learn how to hone my razors.
.....
Thanks, for any help.

---

There are two things to pay attention to here.
One is setting a bevel on a neglected razor and
refreshing the edge on a good shaver.

If you have a good shaver that needs to be refreshed
use light pressure and a minimum of honing.

Pressure will flex a razor in odd ways. When a bevel
gets set the good hands use pressure at first then
relax so the hone and razor mate.

So to refresh a razor on a 3k/8k or 4k/8k hone.
Lap both sides of the hone flat. This need not
be done every time. The important bit is that
both sides have the same shape. Equal dishing is
OK.

Run light circles up and back on the 3k(or 4k) side.
Then 10-15 normal hone strokes up and back on 3k.
Next switch to the 8k side.
Again light pressure, circles up and down
then 10-15 hone strokes up and back rinse,
dry, strop.

Refreshing an edge easy does it. Dark swarf
is a hint that you are over doing it unless you
have one of the white hones out there.

It is possible to refresh an edge on the 8K side alone
and not lap the 8k hone flat after the first time.

I did the never lap thing with a coticle for 20+ years
and only had two razors, it works. It fell apart badly
when I got more razors and hones in my kit so I do not
recommend it. A good shave results from consistent
methodology which is hard when you are learning.

Light consistent touch...

I will fill in few more things, now that I have gotten a little sleep. First, I am doing bevel setting, not refreshing. And that is the culprit. Getting close enough without going over. Once I am close I can move to the 3k hone.

The swedish frameback has a strong smile to it. Therefore circles are out of the question and normal 45-degree heel first stroke only gets the middle of the edge. I have adapted instead a 45-degree rolling-x stroke with a swoop at the end to catch the tip too. I am paying careful attention to the way the water flows on the hone so that I make contact along the whole edge. The heel on the backside needs to be pushed slightly (laying a finger) to make contact. My strokes are not perfect, but I do not believe that is the root of the problem.

Should less pressure be used with a frameback that has a smile, when setting a bevel? I.e. does it flex more than a full-hollow blade? What happens if I keep going on the 1k hone with pressure? A wire edge, dull razor?

From last night I learned that it is no use moving up the hones if the bevel is not perfect. The higher grit hones just wont get you there in reasonable time. Even though it will cut hair, the shave wont be good. Another thing I learned was how important it is to correctly analyze the edge (magic marker). And then lay out good strokes that consistently make contact on both sides. Brainlessly just honing away will never do it (unless you are real lucky).

There is something missing in all of the instructions written by others and that is the part I am missing.

Could it be that I am killing the edge as I clean the blade from the residue? I use a cloth and swipe from heel to toe and backwards simultaneously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

I will fill in few more things, now that I have gotten a little sleep. First, I am doing bevel setting, not refreshing. And that is the culprit. Getting close enough without going over. Once I am close I can move to the 3k hone.
.....
The swedish frameback has a strong smile to it.
.......
There is something missing in all of the instructions written by others and that is the part I am missing.
.....

---

Less may be more. I do not own a frame back but if flex and pressure
are a question just lighten up. That is universal good advice.

Magic marker tests are great.

Reread the WiKi on the Norton 4k/8k pyramid method.
It is as good a set of steps as there is and "rinse lather repeat" can
apply. So give it a by the numbers pyramid honing, strop and
test. If necessary do it again.

Light is good and on a big smile do not fret if the entire blade is not
100%. If the toe is sharp shave with it and gently invite the edge to
run down to the heel with another pyramid and results from magic
marker tests.

Circles with a light touch can make a smile happy. There
is a bit of toe-heal rocking that is just fine for some edges even
big smiling blades. The old marker can tell you more about yours.

Hone with a light touch... there is no hurry, there are not
50 razors lined up with promises to go out today. Finish with
a lighter touch.

Flip the razor smooth and slow... no hurry no worry, keep the
spine in contact with the hone. The flip is where a lot of edges
go dull.

Google

"gssixgun honing smiling razor"

Might be some info that turns on a light or two in there for you

i think i have watched all your videos :idea: but just do not get bevel set by using pressure like you and lynn do. I have used a scale to get an idea about the amount of pressure. It must be something else. Either i torque the edge into the stone when i am flipping or i dont get the edge evenly or my hand wobbles. I will use light pressure next even if it takes forever.

Ok I have some progress. I went back to dmt 600 and did about 20 rolling x strokes and now i have good tnt and i can easily cut hair off my arm. Tpt is still negative. But i am starting to think that either my 1k king is bad or the use of pressure should not be advised in all the videos.

I will continue with light strokes on the 1k. If the edge goes bad i will fall back to the dmt and then jump straight to the 3k. I hope this works.

I doubt your king 1K is bad, everything I have read says they are good hones.

IF you are cutting hair off your arm you are probably there already. Can you pop hair off your arm all the way across the edge of the razor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

Ok I have some progress. I went back to dmt 600 and did about 20 rolling x strokes and now i have good tnt and i can easily cut hair off my arm. Tpt is still negative. But i am starting to think that either my 1k king is bad or the use of pressure should not be advised in all the videos.

I will continue with light strokes on the 1k. If the edge goes bad i will fall back to the dmt and then jump straight to the 3k. I hope this works.

---

If you have set a bevel with the 600 grit dmt you should be able to clean up the edge with very little pressure on the 1k king. Might be an idea to go with just the weight of the razor on the king 1k if you're not in a rush to get a feel for it. Pressure can speed things up but if it's not being applied carefully it can ruin an edge quickly. I found I was torquing the edge into the stone a bit much at first, now when I do use pressure I concentrate more on the spine and things seems to even out better.

ok i might be on to something. I found out that if i go light on the 1k then the very edge turns little jagged under 60x scope but there is no reflection or white line at the very edge. This never happens when i try set bevel with pressure. I still have negative tpt but i think i am getting closer.

Also i have found that doing the away stroke is much harder to do with light pressure and good control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

ok i might be on to something. I found out that if i go light on the 1k then the very edge turns little jagged under 60x scope but there is no reflection or white line at the very edge. This never happens when i try set bevel with pressure. I still have negative tpt but i think i am getting closer.

Also i have found that doing the away stroke is much harder to do with light pressure and good control.

---

Pressure is ok for initial bevel setting but I don't use pressure towards the end of the 1K at all. And I use the lightest pressure possible for other honing steps.

When you finish use the lightest slowest strokes you can.

My best advice is to not overthink or overcomplicate the bevel set too much. You just need to get those two sides meeting at a close enough point and move on to the next grit. Believe it or not, as long as you are within spitting distance on the 1K, the 4K can and will pick up the slack - I used to set bevels on the 4K, for example.

Think of honing a razor like creating a sculpture out of stone. Bevel setting is like roughing out the shape and removing the big chunks of rock - you want it close enough that you don't have to spend more time than you need on the finer detail, but you run the risk of breaking off important features if you go too far. You need to learn when to let each tool do its optimum job: bevel setter gets the edge close, 4K will get it closer and start the polishing, and then upwards from there for the finer detail.

James.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it's always possible that the razor your trying so hard to bevel set might also give a honemeister that same trouble?
Maybe you are doing all the things needed to set the bevel on a razor that you should just put aside and maybe some one out there could send you a razor that would respond better to your learning curve.

I'm sorry as I don't have one, I have just a couple of what I would call good razors but i'm certain some on else might have one for you to work on.

IMHO, just a thought.


tinkersd

Ok now it is official. My 1k king is faulty somehow. It works fine on kitchen knives and crude honing, but for some reason it kills the very edge. I went back to the dmt 600 and did 20 light x-strokes on two different razors and both are now showing signs of bevel set. They both cut arm hair, pass tnt and are somewhat sticky on tpt. Good thing that i ordered the chosera 1k.

Does anybody have any idea what could be wrong with the 1k king? It has been lapped with the dmt and held in a water well.

Im sure most of us will have trouble believing its the stone thats bad. Maybe you should skip the 1k and compensate with a couple more strokes on the 3k.
If its the stone then skipping it should solve your problem.

Eric.

First of all - thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Skipping 1k solved my problem. I honed with normal pressure on the dmt600 for 20 x-strokes. Tnt pass and it cuts arm hair (does not pop). Then I skipped the 1k and went on to the 3k naniwa ss. This time I was trying out a 4/8 heljestrand with uneven bevel wear and a slight warp. I just tried to get the whole edge so that on one side I was doing a slight rolling-x and on the other side a 45 degree heel forward stroke to get the middle which receives less pressure due to the warp/uneven spine. It has taken a lot of strokes because I want to be careful with the pressure this time, but this raxor is now almost bevel set. It is cutting hair easily and I have some grab in the TPT as well. The edge is a even and smooth under the 60x scope.

This thing has me completely bewildered. For the longest time I have believed that it was my poor technique that prevented me from setting the bevel. Now I am thinking that its a combination of few things: 1. some property of the 1k king dulls the very edge. (Maybe a lapping issue, although it is lapped) 2. I was trying to practice bevel setting with ebay specials. Not the easiest choice. 3. My technique was not good. But it was hard to improve since I never got to the bevel setting point.

I can't 100% say the stone is not the issue, but I haven't ever heard of a bad one "Yet" :)

But you have worked through the issue and have a system that works, I suggest you get comfortable setting the bevel and shaving those razors then when you feel confident in your skills add the King back into the system and see if it doesn't work for you..

I love to admit that I am wrong - again. The king stone was not faulty - my technique is. One day you think that the problem is one thing and the next day something else as you can see from this thread. I have kept notes to help me nail down what is working.

1. For bevel setting the king stone was an issue. It is too slow for my technique. I had much better success with the chosera or the dmt plate.
2. My circles suck big time! For some reason I do the circles in a wobbly manner which creates a more obtuse bevel. And so I will never get there doing circles.
3. Once I am close, I did way too many strokes. Somehow this always dulls my edge. My consistency isn't at the level which allows many laps.
4. Swooping/rolling strokes require a lighter relative pressure since the edge contact area is smaller.
5. Occasional backstrokes help to clear burr/debree from the edge.
6. I used too light pressure with uneven strokes at the end. Normal light strokes work better.
7. At some point I was torquing the egde in or lifting the spine ever so slightly before flipping the razor. I was careless.

Last night I was able to complete 3 bevel sets where they cut arm hair easily and are grabby with the tpt. Yay! Knife sharpening is for pussies if you ask me. ;)

Now that I have had some success I have few things on my mind.

Glen (gssixgun) and I think Lynn too can both feel or see on the bevel setting hone when they are coming close and thus know when they should lighten up on their strokes. I find feeling the edge on the hone to be very difficult. So if they or somebody else could assess what they are looking for when the edge is getting close. I found that undercutting the water was not very reliable sign, at least in my case. Also looking at the bevel (edge?) under the light, what exactly should I look for? And at what angle? Microscope is easy, if you see a white line or edge - you are not there yet. When there is no white line or other reflections you are getting close. But it would be much faster to assess on the hone or against a bare light.

When you look directly down on the edge with a 10X loupe, razor held vertically toward you, under bright light, if you can see the edge at all the bevel is not yet set. A completed bevel leaves an invisible edge.

I did some bevel setting experiments on my kitchen knife and chosera 1k.

I have not - until now - realized how little it takes to set the bevel or kill it. First you bring it close with some heavy honing and once everything is in place, you just clear the burr/debris and do few no pressure strokes and BAM! the bevel is set. My kitchen knife is now passing all bevel set tests :D.

Now this is the part that is still a mystery to me. While doing the bevel setting, I went over few times and had to take couple steps back because the edge seemed to go dull. What is it that happens at this point? Does the steel at the very edge get somehow fatigued and break away?

No biggie, a tnt clears it up nicely and few ultra light strokes and the bevel is set again. I think this was a good practice. Of course razor is not exactly the same since you can't play with honing angles and I guess it takes a little while longer to bring the edge back in once you go over.

Ace - thanks for the tip. This test seems quite reliable and shows if you are close. I just used a bright led lamp, no loupe needed. It helps to have something with dark background to see the reflection off the edge. In fact, I think this is the thing that Glen mentioned in his videos, but said he did not know how to show it. Man I wish I had understood this earlier.

I think there should be a diagram that looks something like this in the wiki. The edge is facing the viewer and you have to seek the correct angle, but once you find it, it is very clear if there is a reflection.
Attachment 107581

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ace

When you look directly down on the edge with a 10X loupe, razor held vertically toward you, under bright light, if you can see the edge at all the bevel is not yet set. A completed bevel leaves an invisible edge.

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Got a pic to show this? I don't understand.

^^ There you go. I made one, because I think it is such a fundamental piece of information that can be used in bevel setting.

I completed the honing of the frameback. I had interesting things happening again. I set the bevel with 1k as well as I could and changed the tape after that. I did about 10 strokes on the 3k and it got duller again. It did not cut hair or pass tpt. I was on this stone for good 45 mins before I was happy with the edge. I did back strokes occasionally to clear any burr or debree on the edge. Then about 30 laps on the 8k and 20 laps on the 12k. I finished 5 laps on 1um diamond and 5 laps on 0.5um cox. Then about 50 laps on the strop.

I had one of the nicest shaves of my life. The smiling edge really helped to get the jawline shaved well. I had no cuts or irritation afterwards. After the shave I checked the edge with a 60x scope and there was still a small white line visible. I guess my bevel set at 3k was still not perfect. That edge deterioration thing at 3k still bothers me. I hope I will understand why it happens some day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikkoK

Ok now it is official. My 1k king is faulty somehow. It works fine on kitchen knives and crude honing, but for some reason it kills the very edge. I went back to the dmt 600 and did 20 light x-strokes on two different razors and both are now showing signs of bevel set. They both cut arm hair, pass tnt and are somewhat sticky on tpt. Good thing that i ordered the chosera 1k.

Does anybody have any idea what could be wrong with the 1k king? It has been lapped with the dmt and held in a water well.

---

It is just fine to skip from a 600 grit to a 4k grit and skip the 1K and see if it works for you.
The grit jumps from different vendors can prove difficult to untangle.

So try setting the King to the side and see what happens.

It may not be faulty it just may not be needed.

One quote from above is worth repeating.
Let the hone do the work....

A light touch takes a bit of practice.....

I got the 1k chosera, which I already love, to replace the king. It is much faster and allows me to use less strokes to set the bevel. The king was not faulty, but I did not know how to manage the bevel set with it. And I getting close, but was using too much pressure at the end. Thus, I always had some kind of burr that did not get thin enough to pass the tests.