Thread: Take two: Learning how to set bevel - again.

Hi,
I tried to learn how to hone (set bevels) about 9 months ago and did not really learn. Partly because I had a bad razor to practise on. I took the advise of others a got a Maxard razor from Glen. It has been great and I have used it for this time without honing, just stropping. Now I can say that I think I know how to shave with a straight, but still learning. The edge of the Maxard is not holding up forever so I need to learn how to hone my razors.

At the moment I am practicing on a swedish frameback and I got it to a hair popping sharp but only after honing a ton on the 3/8k (maybe like 300 laps total).

I have few problems and the hardest one is knowing when to lay off the pressure while bevel setting on coarser stones. I am using the 1k king and it seems every time when I get the edge to exhibit some kind of drag on the TNT then shortly after it will feel completely dull again and wont cut hair either. I noticed that they king stone needs to lapped every 20-30 passes as it looses its bite very fast.
I had a scale to measure the pressure I am using so I know I am not using way too much, but it seems every time I some how overshoot the bevel setting stage. That seems odd to me because watching the videos by Lynn and Glen, you can see that they use a lot of pressure and the swarf turn grey really fast while bevel setting. What should I look for/feel as I approach bevel set on the hone? I just never get there on the 1k.

Then the two other issues relate to feeling. First, even though that edge is popping hairs off of my arm, I can not feel a thing on the TPT. (Maybe just a hint of stickyness after stropping the frameback). When I got the razor honed by glen I remember that the edge felt sticky on the TPT. Now that is telling me that my bevel is still not thin enough, and thus not set. But how do I get there?
The other feel related issue is feeling the edge on the hone. Glen says he can feel a bunch of things when he is honing (like rough spots). I can not feel diddley squat. What should I look for?

Thanks, for any help.

The first 2 steps of honing a dull full-hollow razor that needs a bevel set: (Note that Swedish steel can sometimes take much longer than Sheffield steel. Also note that a heavier grind will take more circles. However many more depends on the razor and grind)

1k hone - PRESSURE ONLY, CIRCLES ONLY - slurry first, then water only when edge feels like it will coarsely shave wet arm hair. Stay on this stone until you can cut wet arm hair along the entire edge. Doesn't have to be a comfortable arm hair shave, just that it does it. Full-hollows may only need 30 circles each side. Swedish blades or full wedges may need 100 (or many more) each side.



Step 2, with a 3k stone:
1. heavy slurry and pressure, 20 circles each side.
2. light slurry and pressure, 20 circles each side.
3. light slurry and light pressure, 20 circles each side.
4. NO slurry and light pressure, 20 circles each side.

Step 3, with an 8k stone:

1. heavy slurry, light pressure, 20 circles
2. light slurry, light pressure, 20 circles
3. no slurry, no pressure, 30 x-strokes.


Just keep in mind that until you get to the 8k stone, all you're doing is the grunt work. There's not much room for finesse in the courser stones. Just remove the material and get on with it. Hope this helps.

PS - you never have to lay off the pressure with a 1k stone. Just lay off the slurry.

Bevel setting can be pretty tricky but the king is a good hone. The Swedish steel is pretty hard but the frame-backs are skinny and will take an edge pretty quickly.

For starters I would leave circles out of the equation for now. While circles are an effective stroke and you will want to added later. Right now it is just adding an added element.

Now is your frame-back a straight edge or does it have a slight smile. Many of the Swedish frame-backs have very slight smiles.

If the edge is straight I would use a standard x stroke. Basically the same stroke you have learned stropping just with the edge leading this time. I would do:
20 laps with pressure
10 laps no pressure
Test edge (I like trying to dry shave arm hair. TNT is good to and TPT)
If the edge doesn't pass do another
20 laps with pressure
10 laps no pressure
Test edge

You can continue like this till your passing the test. I recommended using multiple test. If you use the TNT and pass remember you need to do more laps to smooth out the damage caused by the TNT.

After you get the bevel set I recommend following the advice in this wiki post by Lynn http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...d_honing_guide

800 or 1k=sets the bevel
3k or 4k=sharpens the bevel
8kor 10k=polishes the bevel
12k=final finisher...optional

Originally Posted by MikkoK

Hi,
I tried to learn how to hone (set bevels) about 9 months ago
.....
. It has been great and I have used it for this time without honing, just stropping. Now I can say that I think I know how to shave with a straight, but still learning. The edge of the Maxard is not holding up forever so I need to learn how to hone my razors.
.....
Thanks, for any help.

There are two things to pay attention to here.
One is setting a bevel on a neglected razor and
refreshing the edge on a good shaver.

If you have a good shaver that needs to be refreshed
use light pressure and a minimum of honing.

Pressure will flex a razor in odd ways. When a bevel
gets set the good hands use pressure at first then
relax so the hone and razor mate.

So to refresh a razor on a 3k/8k or 4k/8k hone.
Lap both sides of the hone flat. This need not
be done every time. The important bit is that
both sides have the same shape. Equal dishing is
OK.

Run light circles up and back on the 3k(or 4k) side.
Then 10-15 normal hone strokes up and back on 3k.
Next switch to the 8k side.
Again light pressure, circles up and down
then 10-15 hone strokes up and back rinse,
dry, strop.

Refreshing an edge easy does it. Dark swarf
is a hint that you are over doing it unless you
have one of the white hones out there.

It is possible to refresh an edge on the 8K side alone
and not lap the 8k hone flat after the first time.

I did the never lap thing with a coticle for 20+ years
and only had two razors, it works. It fell apart badly
when I got more razors and hones in my kit so I do not
recommend it. A good shave results from consistent
methodology which is hard when you are learning.

Light consistent touch...

I will fill in few more things, now that I have gotten a little sleep. First, I am doing bevel setting, not refreshing. And that is the culprit. Getting close enough without going over. Once I am close I can move to the 3k hone.

The swedish frameback has a strong smile to it. Therefore circles are out of the question and normal 45-degree heel first stroke only gets the middle of the edge. I have adapted instead a 45-degree rolling-x stroke with a swoop at the end to catch the tip too. I am paying careful attention to the way the water flows on the hone so that I make contact along the whole edge. The heel on the backside needs to be pushed slightly (laying a finger) to make contact. My strokes are not perfect, but I do not believe that is the root of the problem.

Should less pressure be used with a frameback that has a smile, when setting a bevel? I.e. does it flex more than a full-hollow blade? What happens if I keep going on the 1k hone with pressure? A wire edge, dull razor?

From last night I learned that it is no use moving up the hones if the bevel is not perfect. The higher grit hones just wont get you there in reasonable time. Even though it will cut hair, the shave wont be good. Another thing I learned was how important it is to correctly analyze the edge (magic marker). And then lay out good strokes that consistently make contact on both sides. Brainlessly just honing away will never do it (unless you are real lucky).

There is something missing in all of the instructions written by others and that is the part I am missing.

Could it be that I am killing the edge as I clean the blade from the residue? I use a cloth and swipe from heel to toe and backwards simultaneously.

Originally Posted by MikkoK

I will fill in few more things, now that I have gotten a little sleep. First, I am doing bevel setting, not refreshing. And that is the culprit. Getting close enough without going over. Once I am close I can move to the 3k hone.
.....
The swedish frameback has a strong smile to it.
.......
There is something missing in all of the instructions written by others and that is the part I am missing.
.....

Less may be more. I do not own a frame back but if flex and pressure
are a question just lighten up. That is universal good advice.

Magic marker tests are great.

Reread the WiKi on the Norton 4k/8k pyramid method.
It is as good a set of steps as there is and "rinse lather repeat" can
apply. So give it a by the numbers pyramid honing, strop and
test. If necessary do it again.

Light is good and on a big smile do not fret if the entire blade is not
100%. If the toe is sharp shave with it and gently invite the edge to
run down to the heel with another pyramid and results from magic
marker tests.

Circles with a light touch can make a smile happy. There
is a bit of toe-heal rocking that is just fine for some edges even
big smiling blades. The old marker can tell you more about yours.

Hone with a light touch... there is no hurry, there are not
50 razors lined up with promises to go out today. Finish with
a lighter touch.

Flip the razor smooth and slow... no hurry no worry, keep the
spine in contact with the hone. The flip is where a lot of edges
go dull.

Google

"gssixgun honing smiling razor"

Might be some info that turns on a light or two in there for you

i think i have watched all your videos but just do not get bevel set by using pressure like you and lynn do. I have used a scale to get an idea about the amount of pressure. It must be something else. Either i torque the edge into the stone when i am flipping or i dont get the edge evenly or my hand wobbles. I will use light pressure next even if it takes forever.

Ok I have some progress. I went back to dmt 600 and did about 20 rolling x strokes and now i have good tnt and i can easily cut hair off my arm. Tpt is still negative. But i am starting to think that either my 1k king is bad or the use of pressure should not be advised in all the videos.

I will continue with light strokes on the 1k. If the edge goes bad i will fall back to the dmt and then jump straight to the 3k. I hope this works.