New to honing - and confused!

Gentlemen-

I currently have a Norton 4/8k and 220/1000k stone, as well as a DMT 325 that I'm using for lapping. I lapped in the stones using my DMT 325 and they seemed a bit rough yet, with some harsh scratches in the stones and whatnot, so I lapped just a bit on the 220 to break in the DMT. The stones are nice and flat now and, I believe, as smooth as they'll get when lapping with the DMT.

I started honing an old Germania Cutlery Oxford Razor that showed no signs of being honed whatsoever and as I was setting the bevel, noticed that the hone wear on the edge of the blade was greater in some areas than others on each side of the blade... This made me think that the blade was slightly warped, but appears to be straight as an arrow...

I'm not sure what to do now as the edge I produced shaves, but not smoothly after progressing through the 4/8k stone, chromium oxide paste, and leather strop. I went back to reset the bevel on the 1k stone and then worked back up to the 4 and 8k but it's still not cutting for squat and I'm pretty unsure about what to do at this point - besides sending my razor to Lynn or Glen with a note that says "Save me, please!" I taped the spine of the razor with electrical tape before honing.

Any advice or help would be appreciated. I think that I most likely failed in setting the bevel properly - but am not sure. I have honed a couple other older razors that already had a bevel set and they shave wonderfully now. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow if I get the chance. Thank you!

I would read and watch what this thread has to offer first, try some of the tricks in there...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html

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Originally Posted by rubicon308

Gentlemen-

I currently have a Norton 4/8k and 220/1000k stone, as well as a DMT 325 that I'm using for lapping. I lapped in the stones using my DMT 325 and they seemed a bit rough yet, with some harsh scratches in the stones and whatnot, so I lapped just a bit on the 220 to break in the DMT. The stones are nice and flat now and, I believe, as smooth as they'll get when lapping with the DMT.

I started honing an old Germania Cutlery Oxford Razor that showed no signs of being honed whatsoever and as I was setting the bevel, noticed that the hone wear on the edge of the blade was greater in some areas than others on each side of the blade... This made me think that the blade was slightly warped, but appears to be straight as an arrow...

I'm not sure what to do now as the edge I produced shaves, but not smoothly after progressing through the 4/8k stone, chromium oxide paste, and leather strop. I went back to reset the bevel on the 1k stone and then worked back up to the 4 and 8k but it's still not cutting for squat and I'm pretty unsure about what to do at this point - besides sending my razor to Lynn or Glen with a note that says "Save me, please!" I taped the spine of the razor with electrical tape before honing.

Any advice or help would be appreciated. I think that I most likely failed in setting the bevel properly - but am not sure. I have honed a couple other older razors that already had a bevel set and they shave wonderfully now. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow if I get the chance. Thank you!

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Sounds like you're in the same predicament that I was in when I started with my Norton 4/8, which was only a few weeks ago. I could not figure out why my razors weren't getting any sharper after using the Norton, but I finally realized that it all comes down to bevel-setting. I bought a King 1k and a Naniwa 1k, and can now pop hair on my arm after using just the 1k. It really makes ALL the difference in the world when you set a proper bevel! I would also recommend buying a 30x Jeweller's Loupe to examine the bevel after hitting it with the 1k. You can get them for like 3 bucks on Amazon. That way, you can really get "up close & personal" with the bevel & make sure it's set properly.

I was convinced that the entire honing process was going to be just that; a process. However if the bevel is properly set, then the rest should be smooth(er) sailing. I having MUCH better luck with my Norton, now that I know about the importance of bevel-setting.

As I always say at the end of my posts: I AM still a newb myself, so you'll probably get much better advice from the VERY helpful mentors on this site!! :)

I'm going to attempt to post a couple photos of the razors edge, which probably wont be as helpful as you guys! I'll be considering the Norton thread Glen posted as required reading for myself, and I'll also watch Lynn's honing section on DVD again with a couple cold ones. Attachment 111973Attachment 111974Attachment 111975

take the razor and lay it on something that you know is totally flat, check the spine and the edge. If you see light, then there is probably a warp which would expalin the bevel width descrepincy. If not warped, then are you honing with two hands, are you rotating presure to the edge of the blade during your stroke, are you swooping during your x stroke, you could be putting too much pressure which can flex the blade. Lot of variables to take into consideration. Just try to eliminate one at a time.

I have a blade that has an area that the hone doesn't "get to" very well. That area is near the heel, and I figure that the blade is warped or not properly shaped. I might normally suspect my honing is the cause, but this has only happened with this one particular blade, and it has been restored. I suspect something might have happened during the restoration process, possibly too much buffing in one area. It still shaves well, but the bevel doesn't look as good as those on my other razors.

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Originally Posted by tiddle

take the razor and lay it on something that you know is totally flat, check the spine and the edge. If you see light, then there is probably a warp which would expalin the bevel width descrepincy. If not warped, then are you honing with two hands, are you rotating presure to the edge of the blade during your stroke, are you swooping during your x stroke, you could be putting too much pressure which can flex the blade. Lot of variables to take into consideration. Just try to eliminate one at a time.

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I know that may not seem helpful, but without hovering over you while you are honing, these are the best guesses that can be made without actually seeing you do it. Good luck

Sonofabuck! I tried what you suggested, Tiddle, and sure as s**t, the blade is warped. :cry: I was totally stoked about this razor too... I have to lift the scales up and down to allow the heel, middle, and toe of the blade to lay flat againt glass. It's a bit bowed, for sure. I can't believe it. At least on the bright side, my honing wasn't the culprit?

Now I'm thinking about carrying a flat piece of glass or something around with me when I go straight razor hunting at antique shops. Lol.

there is a 95% chance that that razor is 5 minutes away from being perfectly shave ready. Keep that in mind when you proceed to problem solving...

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Originally Posted by rubicon308

Now I'm thinking about carrying a flat piece of glass or something around with me when I go straight razor hunting at antique shops. Lol.

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Actually a six dollar piece of tile from home depot is a good idea, but like sheffield said, you may still be able to shave with it, don,t give up. Try adding 2 or 3, heck even 4 layers of tape and see if that helps,you will most certainly have to reset the bevel to adjust for the lift of the spine, if it does chances are over time the bevel may even up.

If the blade is just warped -- when you lie it on glass, the center is off the glass, and the toe and heel is on the glass -- you can hone it.

For the convex side (middle hits the glass, ends are above the glass) use "rolling" strokes.

For the concave side (middle is above the glass, ends are on the glass) use X-strokes that take the edge over the corner of the hone.

This is the kind of work that makes people yell "Honemeister, please!"

They shave fine once they're sharp.

. Charles

PS -- if the blade is twisted or otherwise mis-shapen, that's a different problem.

Thanks to the original poster. Thanks for the replies. I may be in the first category of BEVEL SET.

You should be able to pop arm hairs after bevel set yes? How much pressure? Very little...or with some pressure. I seem to need some pressure to cut arm hairs.

I "thought" I was bevel set but after I finished on the 8k (which there are many here that say if you can't get a comfortable shave of this then there is no need to proceed, so I am staying with this method) it was terrible. horrible. I thought I was shaving with a plow.

There is one thing I noticed with the unaided eye, is some scratches on the bevel near the edge. I can see them with no magnification. Work on bevel set?

Jeb

After setting the bevel, you shouldn't need pressure to pop hairs - I assume you mean you're stroking the edge along in contact with your skin? It should grab and cut hairs above skin level, so pressure doesn't really come into it.

When I started honing, (only in February, so I'm still a newb), I thought that my arm hair was just too fine to cut except right at skin level. I only got to the stage where a fresh bevel off the 1k would cut arm hair 1/4" above the skin a few months ago, but you should aim for this before going on to higher grits. You'll probably get tugging/skipping/burning when you shave if you haven't set the bevel to this point initially - I speak from experience! :)

It's a slow process, this learning to hone.

Yeah, what Charles said, you can still hone it. If you like it, you can hone it. It took me AGES to learn how to hone a warped blade first (still only) time I cam across one. I was THAT close to sending it out, but I persevered and I'm glad I did. My theory was that if I had to rack the blade to have each part touch the hone, then one side was getting way more attention that the other (i.e one side would appear to lie flat, the other wouldn't), so I honed it by lifting the heel as I honed on one side to allow contact across the length, but tripled the strokes on that side.

Are you using pyramids? They are really handy for beginners, otherwise you just get ion to a mode where you have NO idea what you did five minutes ago or even why you did it. The numbers thing in the beginning of honing controls your desire to think you know exactly what you're doing, which I didn't.

I shave leg hairs as a test. That's almost the only test I do. Sometimes I do the Thumb Pad Test. I expect to be able to shave MOST of the leg hairs in a patch (but not all) before I move on to a pyramid of 4/8 after circles on the 4. At the very end I do about 20 on a 16k.

I must say that I am still pretty much learning honing, though I will say I'm self sufficient...

Rubicon,
Where the heck are you from? Your single-most easy answer is to find a honing mentor. There may not be one within driving distance, but there may be one just a few miles away too. You could learn more in one sit-down with a mentor than with months of playing around on here. They don't have to be a "badged" mentor to learn from, just someone who is proficient at honing...

Put your location up in your info, heck, if you are scared of identity theft, use a town close to where you live or at least a region.

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Originally Posted by rubicon308

Sonofabuck! I tried what you suggested, Tiddle, and sure as s**t, the blade is warped. :cry: I was totally stoked about this razor too... I have to lift the scales up and down to allow the heel, middle, and toe of the blade to lay flat againt glass. It's a bit bowed, for sure. I can't believe it. At least on the bright side, my honing wasn't the culprit?

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Time to learn the Rolling X-Stroke!! :p

I have a Boker that I got off fleabay that's bowed like that too, and I was able to get the entire blade sharp by doing the rolling x-stroke; it really does work well! :)

Better yet, do what shooter suggests & sit down with someone; that's a great idea!

Just wanted to let you guys know I've read and appreciate your posts, I just haven't had much time this past week to play with my razors!

My guess is that the razor can be honed just the way it is. Unless there is a big warp or frown, a nice even x-stroke will cover the whole edge.

As a new honer, it's very easy not to cover a whole edge while honing. The Magic marker test will help immensely with this problem. Just put some magic marker on the bevel and do one stroke up and down. Then keep playing around until you can get the magic marker to disappear from toe to heel. Then if there are bits of marker towards the edge you work on 1k till those are gone.

You can try adding a layer of tape, but be warned: Adding a layer of tape is a lot easier than taking one away!

You don't need the whole bevel to be narrow and straight. Just the leading edge should be straight and even. You never know what was done to the bevel to make it the way it is, but as long as you can get a straight and smooth cutting edge, you will be okay.

If you would rather not continue honing this one, you can send it to me and I'll take a look at it. I'd be happy to hone it for you and send it back (no charge, I'm not a pro).

Michael

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

You can try adding a layer of tape, but be warned: Adding a layer of tape is a lot easier than taking one away!

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It has been my experience through quite a few tests that the Taped bevel can be changed to a Non-taped bevel with about 20 laps on a Norton 4k stone or equivalent it is rather tiny..

Also if you have a difficult bevel set and want to save the spine, use the tape to set the bevel, once it is well and truely set, then remove the tape and use typical pressure strokes on the 1k for about 20 laps then continue with your normal honing regimen and you will end up with a nice looking spine and a nice even bevel... (This is exactly what I do when I get requests for "no tape")


All above info is for 1 layer of tape it changes for multiple layers...

Whew! That's it! I'm gonna get some groceries with the fiance and then get some stuff done around the house so I can get my hones out without any guilt! :P Michael, I appreciate your offer, and if this doesn't work out by the end of today, I'll send you a PM. Thanks again, guys!

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

It has been my experience through quite a few tests that the Taped bevel can be changed to a Non-taped bevel with about 20 laps on a Norton 4k stone or equivalent it is rather tiny..

All above info is for 1 layer of tape it changes for multiple layers...

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Yeah, I was talking about starting with one layer of tape, then going to two, then going back to one layer. When I've done that, it always seems that I'm honing behind the edge and have to try for a bit to get it to where the magic marker comes off the edge.

Of course I've only tried that on a few razors and haven't really tested it out on purpose. It's just based on my limited experience.

Michael

That MM test is fantastic Michael it really shows what is going on at the edge, even to old fart eyes like mine :)

The only thing I can add is that you might want to play around with MMs. Some seem to leave ink that peeks off like a tarp (so to speak). Sharpie brand work well and applies a stain to the edge rather than something more like a layer of paint.

I hope that makes sense.

Any more, I just use a 10x lens and I know what the s watch pattern of my stone looks like...so I watch how those scratches overtake the edge.

One final morsel I will share...and this might be a bit advanced...but make all your strokes the same way, then take a different stroke to see where your scratches are (example: if you are using x strokes with the heel forward you will leave angled scratches...so the do a couple straight strokes with heel straight or even trailing if you don't have a shoulder and you should see where your stones are working).

I rewatched the honing section in Lynn's DVD yesterday and gave the razor another go - it'll pop some hairs but not evenly across the length of the blade... I will say, I'm a bit embarrased, but I will share my mistakes so other new honers may not repeat mine.

First, besides starting with small circular strokes to set the bevel, I wasn't using the regular X pattern. I just kept going back and forth on the stones, which is probably why there were some areas wearing more than others.

Second, I was using just a bit of pressure - bad technique after sharpening old pruners and loppers at my regular job on an old oilstone. Also, I think I was using just a bit of pressure because I was afraid of not holding the razor flat against the stone. This probably just enhanced what was already going on with the uneven wear from not using an X pattern.

Third, and this is where I really feel like an idiot - the blade wasn't warped at all. :P I tested it using the glass top on my coffee table. After retesting for a warped edge on tile several times, I confirmed that the blade is indeed, straight as an arrow.

I was, however, able to hone an ERN Ator razor that I've cleaned up and I would say is in shave ready condition. I tested the razor on some arm hair and it shaved nice and smooth. I'm just waiting for my face whiskers to grow some before I have a real shave with it.

I'd like to send my Oxford razor to someone who could really get the edge on it that the razor deserves. I'm just a bit frustrated with this one - although it has taught me quite a lot! Thanks again.

It's this type of trial and error that leads to learning.

That being said I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you this time. don't feel bad about it. It's just part of the hobby.

Michael

Did the razor pop hairs after the circular strokes to set the bevel? I test mine on my leg hairs, and I want it to shave well at that stage before I move on. You'll see videos of guys using one hand to hone; I can't do that, I always feel that the blade will rock and I'll end up just dragging the edge along the edge of the hone. I use two hands, but really there's very very little pressure, esp at the end. The Magic Marker (MM) test is really good for seeing if you're 'hitting' all parts of the bevel. You don't need to get an even bevel all the way along. I'm no expert but I can keep all my razors shave ready and have never had to send any out to be honed (so far ;))...