Should an edge of a 1k after the bevel set pop hairs?

As you are setting your bevel, if it is properly set should it actually pop the hair or just shave a little of the arm. I can get my finished product to pop hairs holding the blade above the skin not touching the skin at all, but I cannot get it to that point off the 1k stone. I can get it to shave and grab my thumb but it won't "pop" hairs. Also can someone post a pic of this magnification scope at radio shack? And lastly are there any pictures here of what a properly set bevel should look like under magnification.

I think maybe a person's hair type affects this. I've had two razors both honed by very experienced guys this week, and neither can pop off my arm hair in this way.

Try the wet thumbnail test instead. This is a better indicator, IMO, of whether you've got a good bevel.

This one looks like a good one to read. http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...nail-test.html

How some describe the cutting action is what I think may be confusing you. If the bevel is set the razor will easily cut arm hair. The hair doesn't need to pop with no effort. It just has to cut the hair, however the better the razor can preform at 1k the less you have to do latter. Of course the more you work at 1k the more metal has been removed.

This is the same model as mine except that I modified mine. Here is a amazon search that will list many options, 60X-100X LED Lighted Pocket Microscope.

The TNT is slightly destructive to the edge, but very useful, just do a few more laps to compensate after it passes the TNT. The scope is most useful when you do not want to damage the edge or are doing the LRT at 8k and higher.

The learning curves do smooth out.

Jonathan

I don't use arm hair testing, never got much out of it. I check bevels visually with a bright light and a 10X loupe.

Actually a well set 1k bevel will shave... having said that way too many times

Some of the guys took that statement to task

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html

Once you realize that 90% of honing is in the bevel set life gets really easy, try a 1k shave try a 4k shave and try the 8k shave feel the differences.. After 8k it is all just icing :p

Keep in mind the using Micron measurements you get to the hair cuting edge at about .50 Microns the sharpest edge measured on a razor that I have read about is .38 microns so from the bevel set to the best magical virgin thigh stropping sharpness is a tiny .12 microns.. That is a pretty darn small difference :D

(Grit references are just there to show the stages of honing Bevel, Sharpen, Polish, Finish)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Keep in mind the using Micron measurements you get to the hair cuting edge at about .50 Microns the sharpest edge measured on a razor that I have read about is .38 microns so from the bevel set to the best magical virgin thigh stropping sharpness is a tiny .12 microns.. That is a pretty darn small difference :D

(Grit references are just there to show the stages of honing Bevel, Sharpen, Polish, Finish)

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I am curious about the source of these measurements. Do you recall where they are from?
I have been looking at both DE blades and my own attempts at honing a straight and these numbers seem a bit high from what I have seen.

See, for example: genco_hht_06 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
-this edge was maybe HHT3.

A properly set bevel can pop arm hair, or in my case leg hair at skin level. This has been my experience.

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Originally Posted by fuzzychops

I am curious about the source of these measurements. Do you recall where they are from?
I have been looking at both DE blades and my own attempts at honing a straight and these numbers seem a bit high from what I have seen.

See, for example: genco_hht_06 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
-this edge was maybe HHT3.

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Search out the Verhoeven (sp) papers they are linked on SRP about a million times

That is some really good Micro Photography you have... some of the best I have seen

Glen, many of the links (perhaps all) to the Verhoeven paper are broken and the original paper seems to have been pulled from the face of the earth.

However some clever searching will uncover a paper on his later work which seems to have changed his previous findings on a few things. Good stuff, and IIRC your numbers are close, but a tenth of a micron sounds small...but the razor sure seems to perform a lot differently if you add or subtract a small fraction of a micron ;)

here

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf

Looking for others

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10044505/E...John-Verhoeven


There is another older one also to I can't find again yet has some good Micro-Graphs


"Two types of razor blades were used to establish a standard that could be used tocompare blades produced in these experiments. The first blade was a Gillette doubleedged stainless steel blade produced in the early 1980s, when double edge blades werestill used in disposable razors. Figure 7 presents SEM micrographs of this blade in the 3orientations discussed for Fig. 1. Analysis of the edge width (EW) was done at 3 randomlocations along the edge at magnifications of 3000 to 10000x and values of EW varied onaverage between 0.35 and 0.45 microns (µm). "



There is the part on DE Blades Looking for the Old stuff on the SR's

6tr67

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

A properly set bevel can pop arm hair, or in my case leg hair at skin level. This has been my experience.

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Off the 1k?

Yes, off a 1K.

Yes, at 1k the edge should be able to treetop/ pop hair. Tree toping is holding the edge off the skin so the top 1/3 of the hair or higher is cut unsupported. It should easily shave hair at the base of the skin. Bottom line is, the edge should be completely sharp at 1K. Once it is sharp do a few more light laps to begin the polishing process.

That said, every ones hair is different and will be easier, more difficult or almost impossible to cut, unsupported. So it is not that important that “your” hair will not pop.
I do not use a hair test, as a test of the quality sharpness, but more as a test of sharpness of different sections of the edge. I test 3-5 areas (Heel & Toe and 1 to 3 places in between). It is so subjective a test, that it is not a reliable test as to quality of sharpness for me.

I have read where people will quantify the level of sharpness with a number, based on how much effort is used to pop a hair. If that works for you and you can distinguish a difference great, use it. And if you can’t, don’t worry about it.

More and more I use the thumb pad test. It is quicker and more reliable, but it does take a lot of experience to develop the “feel” to distinguish levels of sharpness. And I hate hair all over the place, it seems whenever I do a hair test any more, I end up with a hair on the stone, it is irritating and can screw up an edge.

So shave a few hairs and if it works, progress to the next stone.

Just for comparison, 12 microns = 0.00047 inches. Average human hair is 17-180 microns. So the edge of the blade is thinner than even the finest downy hair, and many times thinner than "average" thickness hair.

Just wanted to subscribe, nothing to add

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

More and more I use the thumb pad test. It is quicker and more reliable, but it does take a lot of experience to develop the “feel” to distinguish levels of sharpness. .

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It does take some practice, but I find the TPT to be as effective as popping hair to see if bevel is set (and it's a lot easier). What I have noticed is that there is this strange, "Sticky" feeling that occurs with the TPT when the edge is sharp enough to move onto the next stone. It's like the blade "sticks" to your thumbpad when you make contact.

I'm prob doing a bad job of explaining it, but does anyone know what I mean?

Yup, hard to describe.

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Originally Posted by jpcwon

It does take some practice, but I find the TPT to be as effective as popping hair to see if bevel is set (and it's a lot easier). What I have noticed is that there is this strange, "Sticky" feeling that occurs with the TPT when the edge is sharp enough to move onto the next stone. It's like the blade "sticks" to your thumbpad when you make contact.

I'm prob doing a bad job of explaining it, but does anyone know what I mean?

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yes I can get it there (if Im picking up what you are putting down) but less so when my thumb is wet.

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Originally Posted by ccase39

yes I can get it there (if Im picking up what you are putting down) but less so when my thumb is wet.

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Right; the thumb needs to be dry to feel what I'm talking about. Just be careful when doing the TPT, or you'll end up like me!! :p

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Originally Posted by Trimmy72

Just wanted to subscribe, nothing to add

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You can subscribe with just 3 clicks via the "Thread Tools" button at the top of the page.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

here

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf

Looking for others

Experiments on Knife Sharpening - John Verhoeven


There is another older one also to I can't find again yet has some good Micro-Graphs


"Two types of razor blades were used to establish a standard that could be used tocompare blades produced in these experiments. The first blade was a Gillette doubleedged stainless steel blade produced in the early 1980s, when double edge blades werestill used in disposable razors. Figure 7 presents SEM micrographs of this blade in the 3orientations discussed for Fig. 1. Analysis of the edge width (EW) was done at 3 randomlocations along the edge at magnifications of 3000 to 10000x and values of EW varied onaverage between 0.35 and 0.45 microns (µm). "



There is the part on DE Blades Looking for the Old stuff on the SR's

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This the one you were thinking of ?

WONDER PHOTOS REVEAL UNSUSPECTED FACTS ABOUT Razor Blades and Shaving (Oct, 1931) | Modern Mechanix

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

You can subscribe with just 3 clicks via the "Thread Tools" button at the top of the page.

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Just honed up a blade to ~1K and it popped hairs, tree topped arm hair, and shaved nicely.

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Originally Posted by ccase39

What happens when you subscribe to a thread? Why do you do it?

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Your control panel then gets updated with new posts in that thread.

Decided to try a test shave with 1k Norton and Red Imp 133. The shave went OK. I am gonna see if I can refine it more with just the 1k. I guess there is only so much you can do but might as well take it as far I can.

I found these photos of an old SRP thread from a few years ago. I don’t recall who took them. It was a thread similar to this one, were we were discussing the effects of pressure.

The photographer was watching his children drawing on the side walk with a piece of chalk. So he did a pressure test, two photos, same chalk, same side walk, different amount of pressure.

You can get your 1K to begin to polish the bevel and edge once it is sharp, simply by varying pressure. This is the hardest thing to explain to someone, how much, where to apply and the effects of pressure.

These photos say a lot. Notice the effect on the edge of the chalk.

If they are your photos, forgive me. Thanks.

If they are not, they should be in the wiki


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I Honed 4 razors last night and using Lynns technique off youtube using Naniwa Superstones all of the razors took hair fairly easy some better than others one of them being my Filarmonica Nov 13 and My Gotta 120 the Red Point ok and Bengal ok. My point being maybe different razors react differently but i always only care about the final result

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Originally Posted by fuzzychops

I am curious about the source of these measurements. Do you recall where they are from?
I have been looking at both DE blades and my own attempts at honing a straight and these numbers seem a bit high from what I have seen.

See, for example: genco_hht_06 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
-this edge was maybe HHT3.

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These pics are great. Seeing the difference between a bevel set blade and a polished blade is remarkable.

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Originally Posted by ccase39

What happens when you subscribe to a thread? Why do you do it?

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It is then easily accessible if you ever want to find it again. Just go to 'subscribed threads' and there it is. I have over 100 subscribed.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

If they are not, they should be in the wiki

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If you would like to help with the Wiki. Contact one of the admins re allowing permission for editing access. It would be a big help if more people pitched in.