Not getting anywhere

So....honing is difficult to learn. No duh right? At any rate, first two honing attempts didn't work out so great, nothing catastrophic (thank god) but didn't come away with an edge that shaves hair. First attempt was a pyramid approach on the Norton 4k/8k (with 1-layer tape) as seen on the wiki here followed with 10 strokes on a crox balsa bench hone. Result? Nada. No sharper/better than before. Oooohhhhkkkaaaaayy, so I figure I'll reset the bevel. Got a 220/1k Norton so I did 20 strokes on the 1k (with 1-layer tape), passed the thumbnail test so back to the 4k/8k for another pyramid starting at 15 strokes., ten strokes on 12k stone (with 1-layer tape) followed by ten strokes on crox balsa. Aaaaannnndddd still nothing on the test shave, barely any beard came away. Switched to a razor that's actually sharp and it was smooth sailing.Any

Watching Lynn's DVD he mentions over-honing and I'm thinking that's where my razor is at now. Gliding over the beard without removing hair. My questions are: It was damn difficult for me to find any solid basics on setting a bevel, any place I should be looking? Should I run the edge along the 1k Norton to "kill" it before trying to set the bevel? Granted, each razor is different and each bevel-setting is going to be different, just curious if there's a place one should start, as a beginner of course. I used x-strokes and almost no pressure on the blade throughout the process but there's was no visual evidence of steel coming off the razor. No lines no grey nothing at all. Any thoughts on why? Can't imagine MORE pressure would be good (just doesn't seem right). Technique wasn't bad, in my opinion; went slow, kept razor flat on the stone, elbow up, soaked the stones, and had a spray bottle to keep em wet.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! n

The TNT will dull the razor. You have to go back to the 1k after doing the TNT for a few laps. After that I always do the TPT to see if the bevel is set. I never use the TNT on anything higher than the 1k. In fact the only reason I do the TNT is to smooth out the edge some before continuing to set the bevel. The TPT will tell you alot once you get the sensations down.

Vicious..........

It's good you don't live in Missouri because "overhoning" is a felony in that state.

20 strokes on a 1k is not very much for setting a bevel, especially if your pressure is very light. Try a tiny bit more pressure, and continue on the 1k until its cutting arm hair easily. If it isn't at that stage, going up to higher grits won't do any good.

Have you tried the magic marker test to make sure you are getting all of the edge in contact with the hone?

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Originally Posted by Matt69

20 strokes on a 1k is not very much for setting a bevel, especially if your pressure is very light. Try a tiny bit more pressure, and continue on the 1k until its cutting arm hair easily. If it isn't at that stage, going up to higher grits won't do any good.

Have you tried the magic marker test to make sure you are getting all of the edge in contact with the hone?

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Lack of a properly set bevel was my thought as well. When I set a bevel I do it by feel but rarely do I do less than 60 laps of the 1k hone (up and back).

Agree with matt69. Bevel not set. Magic marker test and then go to town on the 1k. 100 laps for starters. I know Im gonna get yelled at. Then at least 40 -50 more. Keep going until it cuts arm hair. Do not go to a higher grit until that happens. If your bevel is real off, I would hit the 220 side for a bit. Make sure the hones are flat and check them every 20 minutes.

I too am suspecting a bevel setting problem. I found this thread to be very helpful: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html. I set my bevels on a Shapton GS 1K and spend a lot of time there, even though it is one of the fastest hones.

I start out with ~40 circles each side and quite some pressure, which creates a visible burr. Then another ~40 circles per side with less pressure, which reduces the burr somewhat. Then some medium pressure x-strokes until the burr is no longer visible, but it can be felt with the TPT. After that, 10-20 x-strokes with just the weight of the blade until the TPT feels (very) smooth. Only when I reach that smoothness, do I continue on a finer hone.

More experienced members have said it before: bevel setting is 90% of the work. You can shave from a very well set 1K bevel.

Whether your bevel is properly set or not is not a mystery. With bright light and a 10X loupe you can visualize the situation of the bevel and determine whether the two bevel sides are meeting in a good edge. If you can see the edge under bright light and magnification, then you don't have one yet. When the bevel is complete and the bevel is finished, the edge will be too thin to reflect light. If it is reflecting light, the bevel is incomplete. The problem with the TNT and TPT tests is that they are somewhat intuitive and take some learning and practice. Visual identification of a proper bevel and edge is comparatively objective and easy to accomplish.

Over-honing is doing more honing than necessary but rarely has any effect on the edge itself.

When I first started honing I had the same problem. TNT I thought the bevel was set. Then someone said keep honing until you have a bur. Then remove the bur with back honing and then do another 40 laps on the 1k. The amount of time required here was much more than I ever did before, but my edges came into place doing it that way. I have since got a handheld microscope and can do the visual.

u will have to use a good amount of pressure to get your bevels set.lighten up when your close to the finish.imagine tryin to cut a thin slice off the top of your hone.pratice is the only way to Carnegie hall.lol.good luck

You have already identified the problem - 'no visible sign of steel coming off'. Increase the pressure and number of laps until you can see deposits in the water or on the surface of your hone. You will also learn a lot from the marker test as it's very common to have a razor where the spine is less than perfect which will cause problems on the blade edge. You can also spot this in the form of uneven wear if you are using tape.

If's that is the problem you need to search the old posts for a remedy or start a new thread.

I’ve recently had a few razors that have completely stumped me. On one or two I have found solutions but the last one is challenging me to no end as well. I can pass along some of what seemed to work on the successes and will gladly update you on the last one if I ever get it figured out. I had two razors that would get sharp, but they wouldn’t jump to that next level of sharpness to a fully shave ready edge. They were close but now exactly there. They hung around in that annoying middle area – sharp enough to perhaps get by but not sharp enough to really do a bang up job. So every week or so I’m back at the hones trying to push them over the edge. Nothing. Razor #1 is a brand new razor. It came supposedly shave ready and for the most part was. But whoever honed it obviously hit the same brick wall I had and left it to the new owner to resolve. So upon someone else’s advice, I added a second layer of tape to the spine and went back to the 8K to set up a micro bevel. Suddenly its starting to come around. A few more passes and its seems fairly good. I move on to a 12K and its performing the way I was expecting it to all along. Whether this razor needs two layers of tape or a microbevel is yet to be determined. But that’s a trick you might consider. Add another layer of tape to the spine and hit the 8k again. Razor #2 was not brand new. It looked like it was bought new, sat around for a long time unused, then sold. It had some minor rust on the spine that cleaned easily with some sandpaper and metal polish. There was a very small chip taken out of the bevel that needed to be honed out. So I went to work on the 1k stone grinding away for what seemed like an hour to get the chip completely gone. The bevel is set. It had been set for quite some time but the chip required a lot more honing to get rid of it. Finally it can move on. I go to the 4k and see little improvement. I go to the 8k and see slight improvement. I continue at 8k, not getting better. I push forward with more on that stone, still not much better. Maybe give it a shot at 12k to see if that helps any. Not really. I slap on the second layer of tape. Hmmmm, its showing improvement but its stuck in that annoying middle ground again between truly shave ready and just below. I’m thinking about what else I can do with the set up that I have. As a desperation move, I go to a pasted strop with diamond spray. 5 laps on diamond and its considerably better. I do three more laps and stop. It feels like we may have nailed. It. It needs a test but it seems to be sharp enough for the task. Don’t ask me why the diamond spray worked and nothing prior to it did. The last razor HAD a good bevel when I started. It was shaving off of an 8k stone with typical 8k harshness. So, using the same taped spine I went to the 12k, then onto a Zulu grey to refine it. I’m great after the 12k but its steadily losng sharpness on the Zulu. Now its good and properly $%@#’d. What the hell happened? Ok, I must have over done it. I go back to the 8k and can’t seem to get the edge back that I had at 8k. I reset the bevel on the 1k and again can’t bring this one up through the stones to shave well off of the 8k. I try more tape, diamond spray, removing the natural stone….everything. This one has me stumped. Most of the hollow ground razors I’ve worked on honed up well and took on nice edges. But this one won’t budge. Try adding a layer or two of tape to the spine of your razor. It helped me on a couple troublesome ones.

I have purchased 35 straights and during my struggles with some razors, I put them aside figuring I will get to them eventually. They all passed the TNT after bevel set but didn't shave well. Every one benefited from getting the 325 600 1200 dmt. Really setting the bevel. I spent over an hour on one blade till it was set. Really set, then finished with the 4/8 and 12k Fine shaver now. I don't have a problem rremoving metal that needs to be removed to set that bevel. And I don't hesitate to use the 325 with very little pressure to get there. Tape will save your spine, although I don't use it.

Perhaps we might try a few questions to the OP before we give bad advice..

1. What Brand and Type of grind is the razor ??? (You don't even know if the razor is capable of taking an edge yet, knowing the grind also tells you what might be expected )

2. Was the razor shaving before ???? (Before you give advice to destroy the edge, the razor might not even need a bevel set)



Some little hints for the rest of you

Burrs are bad they destroy the steel on the edge, then you have to start again
Not Everyone can use the Arm Hair Test (AHT) is doesn't work on some people
The TNT combined with the Arm Hair test combined with a visual inspection like Ace is describing are all positive tests for the Bevel set, if you can do all three then more power to you but at least learn one of them to use effectively..
A TPT test works also, but it is much harder for a Newb to master that test,
Never use enough pressure to flex the edge



A really good Vid explaining the Visual test Ace is describing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc

Six-gun, excellent advice we don’t often see… enough. “Get as much information before you remove metal.” Much of this hobby is problem solving, you have to understand the problem, before you can solve it.

Unfortunately for the novice honer there is a lot of information / formulas for honing, based on general honing advice or how someone solve their problem. What no one can tell you is what your razor needs, because we can’t see or test your razor.

The simplest test is to look at the razor. You should perform these test before you exchange money for it, but assuming you are doing this over your hones, it’s too late.
First sight the spine from both ends, looking for straightness, then sight the edge for the same. Anomalies forecast problems and course of action. Now look at the spine for hone wear pattern, is it even, is it excessive. Now look at the bevel, is it even, wide, or narrow, smiling or frowning. Is the edge perpendicular to the spine?

Now look at the edge from the sides and straight down, for chips, burrs and cracks. Cracks for me are deal breakers, a strong light and magnification will make this much easier.

When honing, marker ink and tape highlight problems and make them easier to see.

One of the other problems is the ambiguity of the term “Bevel Setting”, what it means is simply sharpening, grinding the two bevels until they meet evenly and forms a sharp edge. Everything after that is polishing the edge.

You cannot polish an edge that does not exist… you are just removing metal, blindly.

One of the other problems is the ambiguity of the term “Bevel Setting”, what it means is simply sharpening, grinding the two bevels until they meet evenly and forms a sharp edge. Everything after that is polishing the edge.
You cannot polish an edge that does not exist… you are just removing metal, blindly

Yes sir, you are right. The OP stated the blade didn't cut hair on the arm and failed the shave test. There is no sharpness. The only way to get it is by removing more metal. The only way to do that in any reasonable time frame is by using an appropriate hone that removes metal quickly. And since the OP has a 220 grit hone, I would suggest using it. And then the 1k etc. If I could go back to when I first started honing, I would recommend a 220/1k hone to start. After you can get it sharp, then use the 4/8 etc.
All the finishing of a blade,4/8 12, .1 micron film, jnats, coticules, sub micron diamond spray etc will not help you if your bevel isn't set. And if it doesn't cut hair, ITS NOT SET! So, go back to the 220 or 1k and don't stop until you can cut hair on your arm.

That simply isn't true...

The arm hair test is Not Foolproof this is why it is good to learn all the tests and then see what system works best for you... (At every Meet I have been to there is at least one person who it doesn't work for)

Again you are simply tossing out the same advice without a basis... Tearing the belly out of a blade with low grit stones is simply not the answer it is an inexperienced rush to sharpen a razor... Please Stop !!!!

Most problems do start in the bevel but you need to learn to read it and stop tearing it up...

Here are some numbers for you, less then 10 blades out of every 100 blades that cross my hones ever touch a hone below a 1k and they are complete restores not just honing.. they need real heavy work with re-contouring the edge...

There is no such thing as a reasonable time frame, the razor takes the time it takes, even for those of us that hone professionally if it doesn't work the first time through, so what, we don't shred the edge with a 220 Norton or a DMT 325 or 600, because we want it done faster...


ps: That statement I always make about walking away from tuff razors, I am doing that right now as I type, I have 6 razors on the hones this morning 4 of them popped a bevel the first time through on the 1k, I went and got a Coke and I am killing time relaxing my hands typing this before I go try one more time on the 2 razors.. If they do not pop I am not going to shred them on the DMT's or Low grits, I am going to dry them and set them aside for later tonight or tomorrow and I will try again slow and steady "Slow is Smooth .. Smooth is Fast"

We know the razor is dull, the OP has a 220/1k and 4/8. What would you suggest he do then. You have only said what he shouldn't do.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

We know the razor is dull,

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No we don't
We know little to nothing so far, read post #14 when I get more answers from the OP I will probably give more advice on what to do, instead of just shooting from the hip.. :shrug:

We can all toss out solutions that worked on razors we had, but until we get some answers they all mean next to nothing..

What if he says it is a Kriger razor ??? all this is for naught then isn't it :p

If he says W&B heavy the answers will be much different then Dovo Bizmarck this is why I said ask questions to get as much info as possible before giving bad advice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

ps: That statement I always make about walking away from tuff razors, I am doing that right now as I type, I have 6 razors on the hones this morning 4 of them popped a bevel the first time through on the 1k, I went and got a Coke and I am killing time relaxing my hands typing this before I go try one more time on the 2 razors.. If they do not pop I am not going to shred them on the DMT's or Low grits, I am going to dry them and set them aside for later tonight or tomorrow and I will try again slow and steady "Slow is Smooth .. Smooth is Fast"

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Not that it has anything to do with this thread directly, and not sure anyone cares but both W&B heavies just popped on the 3rd bevel setting rotation, 20 Circles with pressure 20 circles with light pressure (Just like Lynn showed everyone) and then 20 X strokes all on the 1k Chosera to even it up, is what I call a rotation..
Nothing drastic no rushing to finish, just smooth steady work.. I would have set them aside until tomorrow if they had not popped ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Perhaps we might try a few questions to the OP before we give bad advice..

1. What Brand and Type of grind is the razor ??? (You don't even know if the razor is capable of taking an edge yet, knowing the grind also tells you what might be expected )

2. Was the razor shaving before ???? (Before you give advice to destroy the edge, the razor might not even need a bevel set)



Some little hints for the rest of you

Burrs are bad they destroy the steel on the edge, then you have to start again
Not Everyone can use the Arm Hair Test (AHT) is doesn't work on some people
The TNT combined with the Arm Hair test combined with a visual inspection like Ace is describing are all positive tests for the Bevel set, if you can do all three then more power to you but at least learn one of them to use effectively..
A TPT test works also, but it is much harder for a Newb to master that test,
Never use enough pressure to flex the edge

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Was going to update today with those stats when I realized I had forgotten to mention them.

The razor is a Dovo "Best Quality" 5/8 Hollow ground and was shaving previously, though not so well recently, hence the attempt at honing. Also will add I first tried refreshing the blade with only the crox balsa and only after that didn't bring it back to shaving did I go to the stones.

Thanks all for the advice and response!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Not that it has anything to do with this thread directly, and not sure anyone cares but both W&B heavies just popped on the 3rd bevel setting rotation, 20 Circles with pressure 20 circles with light pressure (Just like Lynn showed everyone) and then 20 X strokes all on the 1k Chosera to even it up, is what I call a rotation..
Nothing drastic no rushing to finish, just smooth steady work.. I would have set them aside until tomorrow if they had not popped ...

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Thats your bevel set routine then? OK. You coulda said thats how you do it in sets of 20 circles etc. 120 circles and 60 x strokes. So if I used a dmt 1200 and say 100 laps why is that so much then? I dont automatically start at 325. The ones where the marker test (spine and edge) shows alot of black after 5 laps on the 12k is when i will do it. If the edge is short somewhere or the spine is off frown etc. I dont think 20 or 30 laps on a 220 will kill the edge either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Was going to update today with those stats when I realized I had forgotten to mention them.

The razor is a Dovo 5/8 Hollow ground and was shaving previously, though not so well recently, hence the attempt at honing. Also will add I first tried refreshing the blade with only the crox balsa and only after that didn't bring it back to shaving did I go to the stones.

Thanks all for the advice and response!

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Go straight to the JaNorton thread, take the rest of today to watch and learn, pick one of the many routines in that thread and try it out...
Pick the one that makes the most sense to you, but again TRY a shave after stropping and see where you are at right now this will give you a baseline to work from..

I seriously doubt you have overhoned the edge...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html

That thread is all about using simply the Norton 4/8 only, from rank beginners to expert professional honers shared their ideas, successes and failures in there...

That thread teaches people how to approach a fine smooth edge slowly, and how to get the most out of the Norton 8k many of the Vids will show the TNT and the AHT even why it is wise to use both...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Thats your bevel set routine then? OK. You coulda said thats how you do it in sets of 20 circles etc. 120 circles and 60 x strokes. So if I used a dmt 1200 and say 100 laps why is that so much then? I dont automatically start at 325. The ones where the marker test (spine and edge) shows alot of black after 5 laps on the 12k is when i will do it. If the edge is short somewhere or the spine is off frown etc. I dont think 20 or 30 laps on a 220 will kill the edge either.

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Why would I have said that before I knew anything about this guy's razor or situation ??? all that has nothing to do with the OP... Also you mis-read, the 120 + 60 was for an extreme case and heavy wedges, the other 4 razors (two wedges and two hollows) didn't need anywhere near that...

You might want to note by reading in the honing forum, that the recommendations to use anything lower then a 1k (approx) for "Honing" and not serious repair work are pretty few and far between... :hmmm: In fact if you read really close you will find that many don't even like using a 1k unless it is for a complete bevel reset...

40 circles and 20 x strokes will remove the same amount of metal as 100 laps on the 1200 dmt. Why is my count off but yours is not. You do this in sets so the minimum is that. We are talking about bevels. You said you do blade restorations with lower grit stones? Are these edges killed also? Isnt there a way to get these to shave then? Yes. Then why do you say that if a blade is off, that a lower grit stone is bad, but yet you use them? Im trying to make sense of what your saying. You tell me no, it kills the edge but you using them doesnt?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bill3152

40 circles and 20 x strokes will remove the same amount of metal as 100 laps on the 1200 dmt. Why is my count off but yours is not. You do this in sets so the minimum is that. We are talking about bevels. You said you do blade restorations with lower grit stones? Are these edges killed also? Isnt there a way to get these to shave then? Yes. Then why do you say that if a blade is off, that a lower grit stone is bad, but yet you use them? Im trying to make sense of what your saying. You tell me no, it kills the edge but you using them doesnt?

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Yep yer right you have it all figured out after 35 whole razors, Good Luck with that ...

You might try learning before giving advice.


(Robert I admit it, you were right after all - Private Joke)

Update: Finally got somewhere.

Went back to 1k stone on the Dovo "Best Quality" 5/8 for some circles. A lot of circles (with 1-layer tape). Did the felt-tip test and after an adjustment of my arm-moving-blade technique the bevel was on the stone evenly. Conservative estimate says I did about 100-120 circles, with x-strokes after every 15-20 circles then an AHT (I have another razor that cuts arm hair like butter so I feel it's a good indicator). After maybe 45-minutes with the circle/x-stroke/test routine the blade wasn't cutting hair, though this time there was steel coming off the blade (previously there hadn't been any). Tried the japanese style Glen showed in his Janorton video, which did a little better, but not much.

Got frustrated, put down the razor, put on some tunes, had a smoke, then read http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...bing-over.html

And 2c. caught my eye so I added a layer of tape. 20 circles plus some x-strokes later and it's passing the AHT with ease. So yeah, score 1 for experimenting a little. Finished with a pyramid on the 4k/8k plus some 12k and did a test shave. Not a perfect shave, not by a long shot, but it cut hair and didn't pull too much at all. Still needs work, but happy to have seen some progress.

Thanks again to all who offered advice and avenues to persue!

~Matt

I promised that if I got anywhere with one of the problematic blades I was working on finally showed results. Well, last night I think I nailed one. Over the weekend I was reading one of Obie's conversations with Randy Tuttle, Straight Razor Place - Conversatrion with Randy Tuttle. In this post, Randy Tuttle suggested that if a razor at some point saw some rust at the cutting edge, it may not hold an edge until you grind away enough to reach some good steel. The razor in question was bought on eBay and appeared to be in good condition. But I thought, what if it saw some light rust at the cutting edge and it was removed with some metal polish? If the rust was right at the bevel, it wouldn't take much to oxidize right through would it? And how would I know that it had this rust but for the obvious symptom that I can't seem to get it to take an edge? So I put two layers of tape on the spine and went back to the 1k stone and ground away for quite some time. I raised a slurry and did circles until there was some considerable swarf. I then rinsed the stone and gave it a lap to clean the surface, raised another slurry and repeated. At this point I went about my normal bevel setting process of cleaning the stone again and doing light strokes on water only to get as much as I can from the 1k stone. This time the edge was showing progress at every level of progression. It seems ready for a test but I'm excited that a solution presented itself.

Vicious,

I'm going to try and help you by backing up to the beginnings. My first absolute recommendation is to find someone within driving distance to you who is proficient at honing. A few hours with a veteran honer will shave you a LOT of heartache and heartburn that you have already experienced. Don't get me wrong, there is a "touch" you must learn...but once you have that, your skills will do nothing but improve.

Are your stones lapped & lapped well? Those Nortons can have a thick "skin" sometimes. If that skin is on your stones, I couldn't hone a razor on it proficiently...nor could you.

My normal recommendation for any person wanting to learn the stones is to start with touch-ups. You didn't get it the first time, so try and try again. None of us got honing or touch-ups right the first time, much less every time. I still take a razor back to the stones from time to time after a honing & I've honed a razor or two.

Lets talk about pressure. You must use a little pressure to remove steel, but not enough to "flex" the blade. Deliberately flex the blade on the stones and pay attention to the pressure...now you know how much pressure NOT to use on that particular blade. On a bevel set, you will use enough pressure to remove steel, but not enough to flex the blade...in the beginning. You must then lighten the pressure gradually. Lets just say you were going to use 50 x strokes to re-set the bevel. The first 20 would be with pressure, each set of 10 strokes would have reduced pressure to where the last set of 10 strokes would just have the weight of the blade.

You had asked if you should "kill" an edge. No. Very, very, very few razors need this done.

Something I do recommend is that you pick up some sort of magnification. Radio Shack makes a lighted microscope that's cheap, but works pretty good. It eats batteries pretty quick, like one per honing session, but you could see literally what is going on at the edge. I still use one on bevel sets.

Again my friend, I strongly recommend finding a honing mentor...

Scott, if I could like your post twice, I would!

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Originally Posted by Vicious

...Finished with a pyramid on the 4k/8k plus some 12k and did a test shave. Not a perfect shave, not by a long shot, but it cut hair and didn't pull too much at all. Still needs work, but happy to have seen some progress...

~Matt

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So Matt this is a critical point. Can it be made shave ready from here without going back to bevel setting? How 'bad' is the shave? Have you posted exactly what your pyramid is? Can you post a video of you honing? A video could really help.

I agree with the comments about what razor it is, BTW. It was pretty much the first thing I thought of. I have next to no experience, but as a beginner, my mistakes are very fresh to my mind. I recently created some annoying hone wear on a razor as I didn't know (or didn't think to think) was quite soft steel in comparison to some of my Swedish razors. Why I guess it's pretty important to ascertain that sort of thing up front. Initially I was wondering if this was a SS razor.