Barber hone coaching wanted

I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship with my barber hones: I love them, but they don't treat me right.

Right now I have five: the three-hone package from Tilly with the Gem, cushion strop and lithide, a red-brown hone, and a Swaty.

I've tussled with them several times and always been disappointed, particularly with the Swaty. The hones just seem to dull my edges. My razors come off the Norton 8K with an edge that passes the HHT easily.

Would a few members who consider themselves barber hone pros be willing to give me some coaching here?

I guess I'd start with the Swaty and lithide. Would you use either of these after a Norton 8K, or are they about the same level?

Are there any techiques you've picked up that really made a difference?

I'll try your suggestions and report back on my progress.

Thanks,
Josh

Josh:

I don't know much about barber hones but from what I've learned, using a barber hone after using the 8k side of a Norton isn't useful. Most barber hones are around 6k.

Not exactly the most experienced here but....I do use a barber hone as my finishing step. I use a two line Swaty, purchased off E-bay, and never lapped by me. I cleaned it up with some Bon Ami and a toothbrush and now use it on all my razors. My first couple of times with it I got the same results you are describing, dull edges. then somehow it clicked and now it is my finisher and my refresher.

The process for a razor coming off of the 8000 (mine are sun tiger stones) is to give it about twenty passes on the Swaty dry, then 20 with lather, strop and shave. If that didn't do it I go back to the Swaty with lather for ten passes before the next strop and shave test. I refresh the same way five to ten passes (depending on level of pulling and how this razor behaves) on a lathered Swaty to bring the edge back.

I use it held in my right hand (I'm left handed) with a modified X-stroke. The stroke starts out at about a twenty degree angle along the hone (spine flat of course) then I kind of slice down the last inch or so. Don't ask me why I do this :shrug: all I can say is it feels right and since I started doing it the hone has worked, where the straight X felt awkward and didn't. I also don't make any special effort to hold the hone parallel to the floor usually its canted about twenty degrees to the left which is more relaxed for both my razor hand and stone hand than trying to hold everything flat. I do think thats the key for me, that I use this hone in a nice soft grip and with very light pressure move the razor along it smoothly and naturally.

My rougher honing feels more like work, I'm shaping the bevel or cutting away metal, its harsh or abrasive (excuse the pun:) . The fine finishing Swaty work is relaxed and smooth, I am polishing, smoothing, coaxing the edge to perfection not forcing it there.

Hope you can get something from all this:)
Good luck!!!

I use my Dubl Duck hone a fair bit, and used to use my extra-fine "The King" hone a lot until I dropped it and chipped the ^%$#@ out of it:cen

You've got to lap them, like you would a norton or any other hone. They are designed for freehand use, just hold them lightly from the end with your fingers or rest them in your palm and the instability in this position means the slightest touch from the razor's spine will tilt them flat up against the razor and keep them there as you stroke, even if the razor's angle changes a bit the stone will pivot to match. I hold my razors by the middle of the scales and let the razor's weight do the work. You can use them dry, but I get a finer edge (and no clogging) if I use shaving lather as a lube.

I wouldn't bother using them as a finishing hone unless you know you've got an extra fine one - the 3-line swatys are supposedly fine enough for this use. I don't have a swaty, but my "The King" hone is fine enough to use as a finishing hone, even used dry it makes an edge comparable in feel to my 15k Shapton (but is a much slower hone).

This is very helpful for me, since I've never had much luck with my 3-line swaty either.

I've heard it said that the 3-line is finer on one side, but for the life of me I can't tell the difference. They feel equal to the touch, and both sides just dull my razors.

With these descriptions in mind though I'm going to give the swaty another shot.

I have two barber hones, the Itsapeech, and the Lithide, and I believe both of them are coarser than the Norton 8000. So, I don't use them.

Nenad

Make sure the swaty is lapped, and chamfer the edges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Are there any techniques you've picked up that really made a difference?

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A member we haven't seen around for quite a while (Hal Wilson) was a great proponent of them... he is truly a barber hone addict. He mentions [in this post] viewing the The Lost Art of Straight Razor Shaving by Greg Ives as inspirational. I've never watched the video, but you might give it a shot. There was a fair amount of discussion about barber hones a long while ago... but my aging memory can't remember whether it was on this site or the Yahoo SRP... might even have been in the Yahoo SRP archives. :shrug:

Anyway, I have a barber hone but use it infrequently. I never used it enough to say I really mastered it. But when I've been lazy and let my rotation get down to the last sharp razor, and that one gets uncomfortable part way thru the shave, a couple light strokes on the barber hone and a quick strop allows me to finish the shave... quick and easy. Hal might disagree, but for me the barber hone will never match the edge I can set with a 4/8K Norton followed by croxide (or diamond) on a leather bench hone.

All that said... anyone know whatever happened to Hal... he hasn't checked in here since last Fall?

Wildtim,

OK, there's some stuff in here that I haven't tried before. I'm going to give it a shot, particularly the stroke you're describing.

MParker's suggestion about holding the razor by the middle of the scales is also interesting.

I'll hone up a razor to HHT sharp on the 8K and then try finishing on the Swaty.

Stay tuned...

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

Not exactly the most experienced here but....I do use a barber hone as my finishing step. I use a two line Swaty, purchased off E-bay, and never lapped by me. I cleaned it up with some Bon Ami and a toothbrush and now use it on all my razors. My first couple of times with it I got the same results you are describing, dull edges. then somehow it clicked and now it is my finisher and my refresher.

The process for a razor coming off of the 8000 (mine are sun tiger stones) is to give it about twenty passes on the Swaty dry, then 20 with lather, strop and shave. If that didn't do it I go back to the Swaty with lather for ten passes before the next strop and shave test. I refresh the same way five to ten passes (depending on level of pulling and how this razor behaves) on a lathered Swaty to bring the edge back.

I use it held in my right hand (I'm left handed) with a modified X-stroke. The stroke starts out at about a twenty degree angle along the hone (spine flat of course) then I kind of slice down the last inch or so. Don't ask me why I do this :shrug: all I can say is it feels right and since I started doing it the hone has worked, where the straight X felt awkward and didn't. I also don't make any special effort to hold the hone parallel to the floor usually its canted about twenty degrees to the left which is more relaxed for both my razor hand and stone hand than trying to hold everything flat. I do think thats the key for me, that I use this hone in a nice soft grip and with very light pressure move the razor along it smoothly and naturally.

My rougher honing feels more like work, I'm shaping the bevel or cutting away metal, its harsh or abrasive (excuse the pun:) . The fine finishing Swaty work is relaxed and smooth, I am polishing, smoothing, coaxing the edge to perfection not forcing it there.

Hope you can get something from all this:)
Good luck!!!

---

A lot of guys who think they are Gods gift to honing can't stand barber hones. First problem is you have to spend as much time practicing with them as you did your Norton. Second, they cut at completely differing speeds. They are really a very different animal.

The only thing I can suggest is that if you buy 3 barber hones; atleast one will be great, one ok, and one difficult. They all will work and they won't overhone easily. I think your purchase choice Josh was pretty good.

The next step is to use light airy strokes. It will only take 6 or so. And again, dry, then with lather helps. I use lather only and about 6 laps alone.

Not only were barbers needing a convient hone but they were an inpatient bunch I bet. No time to stroke 40 laps on an 8K Norton to get an edge back. :)

As always the correct stroke and X pattern is also helpful.

I've also noticed some blades take better to them than others, but never kept stats.

Some of the barber hones you mentioned are not finishing stones and some are btw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Make sure the swaty is lapped, and chamfer the edges.

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what do you lap it with? 1000 grit sandpaper?

That would probably work too. I generally use 600 grit. you can also use another barber hone.

Barber hones are very hard, so this isn't like lapping a norton.

My Swaty needed a lot of smoothing when I bought it, so I lapped it with 400-grit sandpaper, then polished it with something higher grit. The surface is so smooth it feels like glazed ceramic almost.

The lithide is smoother after I lapped it on my Norton 4K. The sandpaper left it feeling rough, like 220 grit, even though it probably wouldn't affect the cutting speed. :)

All of my hones have been lapped to death: on sandpaper and against each other in different combinations.

I'm playing around with the lithide today. It's definitely a fun hone because it's so small... :)

Josh

Josh... This is a great posting... :tu

Right after I started using a straight I got a Premier hone from Tilly. About once a month I gave my straights about 5-6 passes and they came right back to great shaving edge. I thought that getting a Norton 4/8K stone would be even better. Wrong!!! All I have managed to do is screw up the edges and make them unshaveable. I have lapped both stones and they are ultra smooth so that is not the problem. Now I know that is my fault for not having a good honing skill, but the same technique is used on both stones. My patience with the Norton is about gone and I am ready to toss it, send the straights out for a proper honing, and go back to using the Premier barber hone only. They are very slow cutters and I am not likely to ruin an edge like a Norton. My only goal is to get a good shave.

IMHO, barber hones and swatys get a ... :tu

All right, so tomorrow I'm going to do my first barber hone test shave.

I have this big W&b quarter hollow that I've been working on for the last week, so I thought I'd make it my guinea pig. I set the bevel with water stones--a 1K and my 4K Chinese slipstone--because I'm not a glutton for punishment. :)

After establishing the bevel I worked it for a while on my cushion hone from Tilly. I like the way this thing works; seems to cut pretty quickly for a barber hone. I was able to get HHT-sharp along most of the blade. (The heel and toe don't sit flat on the stone for some reason. It requires some interesting gymnastics during the stroke...) The edge seemed to handle hanging hairs a bit better than my edges usually do coming off of the Norton 4K. Not sure right now what this means...

I moved to the Gem for maybe 50 to 100 strokes and saw some improvement. I then tried about 20 strokes on the lithide, but I wasn't having much luck. So I grabbed my Swaty and did about 30 or 40 strokes. The razor is now cutting hairs all along the blade, but not quite as well as it does off the Norton 8K.

I'm a little worried about the test for a couple of reasons: The bevel doesn't look very polished. I can see the grit lines without a microscope. And second, I've found that a razor has to pass the HHT brilliantly to be comfortable for me. (A HHT razor won't always shave me well, but a non-HHT sharp razor is guaranteed not to.)

I'm hoping that the grit lines are more pronounced but shallower, and that it'll still shave smoothly.

I had the most success by using just the edge of the hones, which I've rounded off. This is a really heavy grind, though, and I wouldn't try that on a full-hollow.

I'll let you know how it goes...

Josh

The test shave this morning went OK but not great--about what I expected. The shave with the edge from my Swaty was equivalent to what I would get off the 8K Norton. It shaves, but not particularly close or smooth. (Right now the only way for me to get a really close, comfortable shave is to go to my paddle pasted and .5 micron diamond paste.)

I could feel my face starting to get raw partway through the first pass, so I decided not to be a hero and grabbed my paste-sharpened Henkels. :)

I was using the Swaty dry. I think I'm going to go back to the Gem and try to smooth the edge out some more and then use the Swaty with lather.

On a somewhat unrelated note, it's hard to understand why I can't seem to get an 8K edge to give me a smooth shave. Part of it is probably shaving technique, but I can take the same 8K edge that leaves me feeling a little sore, give it 20 passes on the .5 micron, and get a great shave. Would any of you true honemeisters be willing to finish one of my razors with a nice 8K edge so I could check my Norton honing technique? (Should only be a five minute job...)

I probably need more work finishing the edge on the 8K. Maybe that'll be my next goal...

Thanks,
Josh

I like the Barber's hones and have 4 - ranging frome coarse to fine, they are:

little devil (coarse)
cushion strop (medium)
Gem (med-fine)
amalgamite (fine)
lithide (very fine)

The first two are very fast cutters and set a bevel very quickly.

The amalgamite is a nice hone and I think I could get a razor shaving sharp off of it.

The lithide is one I'm still playing with - I've used it dry to refresh edges with good results, but some razors seem to like it better than others. I'm going to experiment with using it wet to see how that works.

Using nothing but these hones, I have brought a NOS razor to shaving sharp with not too much work. Sometimes I set the hones on a block and use them that way instead of holding them in my hand.

One thing I notice with the barber's hones is that you can easily underhone the tip and heel - so I periodically do a few laps where I just hone the heel and then do the same with the tip.

I lapped all of my barber's hones with a 600 DMT diamond hone.

The lithide definitely felt a little rougher and there are some scratches, but it seems to work ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by azjoe

A member we haven't seen around for quite a while (Hal Wilson) was a great proponent of them... he is truly a barber hone addict. He mentions [in this post] viewing the The Lost Art of Straight Razor Shaving by Greg Ives as inspirational. I've never watched the video, but you might give it a shot. There was a fair amount of discussion about barber hones a long while ago... but my aging memory can't remember whether it was on this site or the Yahoo SRP... might even have been in the Yahoo SRP archives. :shrug:

Anyway, I have a barber hone but use it infrequently. I never used it enough to say I really mastered it. But when I've been lazy and let my rotation get down to the last sharp razor, and that one gets uncomfortable part way thru the shave, a couple light strokes on the barber hone and a quick strop allows me to finish the shave... quick and easy. Hal might disagree, but for me the barber hone will never match the edge I can set with a 4/8K Norton followed by croxide (or diamond) on a leather bench hone.

All that said... anyone know whatever happened to Hal... he hasn't checked in here since last Fall?

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Hal is on vacation in the Himalayas right now I think. Talked to him last right before Christmas. He was pretty busy this last fall so he wasn't to chatty.

I have been reading some of these posts about how rough they are and not to bother using barber hones. Both Hal and Dave Francis taught me how to use them and just for comparison I recently bought a Norton 4k/8k. It should be interesting to see just how they fit in. I can tell you that Hal did sell his Norton and I once asked him if the Honemaster was finer than the 8k side. He said that it sure is. I guess I will find out for my self.

Glen

Glen

If you do come up with a good sequence for an E-bay find let me know. I like the little hones (my waterstones are only 21/2 by 4) and would like a good barber hone sequence to try. I'm just not experienced enough to buy them blind and try to work something up myself.

Tim, there are a ton of barber hones that fall into the medium fine category. I was lucky when I started that someone told me what to buy and at the time Tilly at Redtrader99 had what I needed. I highly recommend looking out for double grit hones. This should give you a medium and a fine hone with one purchase. One of my favorites is a Wester Bros. That is kind of OD green on one side and black on the other. This hone is capable of taking a razor off of ebay and turning it into a great shaver. But as we get more refined and want more, I have purchased several extra fine finishing hones. The Honemaster is my favorite along with Itsapeech and a three line Swaty. Since Tilly doesn’t have any of these left you have to keep you eyes open. Buy a few and see how they work. You may get lucky only buying a couple of different hones and get a working set. If you need information on getting them flat let me know.

Glen

p.s. I use to do Schutzund training back in the mid-seventies. Now I have two Jack Russells and a Basset. How things change with time.

I posted some old swaty instructions from here sometime ago, to me the blade goes in the opposite direction to stropping. I still have not tried my swaty yet, I did not know how to lap it.

John

Lapping a barber hone is fairly simple. Just get yourself some wet dry sandpaper, depending on the hones condition you will need grits from 120 to 1000. Soak the sandpaper in water, stick it to a flat surface and take your hone to the paper in an x fashion. Do one leg of the x for a few strokes then move on to the second. That is how I did it with my swaty hone. Start with 120-220 then move to 600 to finish, then polish with 1000. Make sure you keep the stone and paper reasonably hydrated throughout.

These days I'm lapping barber hones and other stones with my DMT 320-grit diamond hone, which does a fantastic job. I can get them flat and smooth in 20 minutes or less. The downside is I get less of a workout. :D

Josh

Hey Josh,
I saw you have mostly the same hones I do and roughly the same problem I used to have.

I have a couple of big W&Bs and have found they generally shave best off of
the Gem. No Swaty.
My other finish hone ruins the shave too.

I have also found that the cushion strop, gem and such take a LONG TIME to remove scratches left from coarser hones.

That was the major thing the microscope showed me was leftover scratches from a coarser hone.

Try spending more time on the cushion strop, like another 150 laps and then go to the gem for 50 more.
See if that will shave better.
if not do it again but maybe 50 on the cushion strop and 30 gem.

I used to worry about overhoning and now I realize that I was under honing by like two thirds.

I like the Swaty for really hard razors but not the Sheffield stuff.
Even then I find it works great sometimes and not at all others :shrug:

Keep it up. I sharpen all my razors on nothing but 2000 sandpaper, cushion strop hone, gem, sort-of-coticule, swaty, 1 micron and .5 micron diamond paste applied to a cedar shim sanded smooth.

I didn't even have the diamond 2 weeks ago, just the black paste from CS on a strop.

I threw the Lithide at my neighbors dog for crapping on my lawn :rant:
no really, I gave it to someone to practice on

I just clicked the link and read Hal Wilson's post:

"My train of thought is this: why half kill a dying art by denying half
of the skill and tools used for straight razor shaving?"

and

"Barber hones are not necessary, neither are straight razors."

These sum up my attitude about barber hones and straight razors to a T.

I've got a three line Swaty, a NIB Edlis (arrived today-still unused) and I broke a Gem before I had a chance to use it.

I, like Hal, figure barber hones are part of the package that attracted me to open blade shaving in the first place.

Now, to find a copy of the video The Lost Art of Straight Razor Shaving.

Regards

The pointers I got here really helped me figure out my barber hone issues. I've been able to get some great shaves off of a medium grit red barber hone that I have--the very first hone I bought, and one I kept for some reason even after many failed attempts at using it...

Right now I'm really into using a smooth, less sharp edge instead of a hyper sharp one. I adopt a steeper blade angle and the razor just plows through the stubble.... It pulls a bit more, but not uncomfortably so, and I wind up with a super close shave and no irritation.

Since barber hones cut slowly, they seem to put a different kind of edge on the razor than the faster hones. It's not as sharp but it's smoother. I think the abrasives are coarser--maybe 6K as the consensus seems to be--but less cutting surface is exposed, so the grooves are shallower. :shrug: Anyway, I like the result. :)

With all the talk about high-grit finishing hones and pastes, it's easy to get swept up in the "sharper is better" idea. I think sharper is better for some guys, particularly those with lighter beards. But a less sharp, toothy edge might work better for some coarse beards. (Think of how the HHT works differently for different hair types. Really thin hair needs an extremely sharp blade or it just bends out of the way.)

Just a few thoughts. :)

Josh

I use Barber hones and any other hone I've bought soon gets cut down to barber size. I have never had a problem getting an edge from a set of barbers and can say that the edge achieved from a good combination of barber hones would stand up against an edge produced on my echers etc.
I think us all posting our opinions on barber hone grading and relationship would prove a valuable archive for beginners and veterans alike. Who will get the ball rolling :)
I'll go and log my barbers and post tomorrow.

PuFF

Puff,

This is a great idea. There will probably be some naysayers along shortly, but even a highly subjective review of different hones would be an improvement over the near-total vacuum of info we have now. :)

I have or have used several barber hones that I'd be glad to describe...

Let's do it! :)

Josh

I had some thoughts on this and came to this format for the grading, let me know your thoughts.

One razor tests all the hones.
This razor is shave ready before the tests.
Progress from what is believed to be the finest to the coarsest hone in each test. (possibility of bringing back to start level before trying new hone? )
30 round trips on the plain leather strop.
Single pass WTG on the cheek to determine the level on shave readiness for each hone.

I suppose this could be refined, so I would appreciate your input here.

PuFF

edit:
>>descriptive notes for feedback<<
Comparison between dry/wet/lather/oil (if wanted)
account for number of round trips over hone needed to gain an edge.
HHT guide but shave stroke is deciding factor.
Describe sound and feel of razor on the hone. ( some cast hones give a very disagreeable sound while honing)

I have a few barber hones, I'm in. Is it literally the same razor? Should we ship the hones to one person? don't you think that the variable of evan different type razors of the same make, also the person using the hone would effect the test? I would be willing to let someone borrow my hones to gather this info.

Phil

I believe the one razor for the tests gives a level bench mark for the tests. Also I feel that if everyone who takes part does the test using the same format, a common consensuses will be gained for each hone. If everyone uses a different razor, no problem. We can't all have the same razor can we :) We will get a general appreciation for how the hone works for differing razors as a bunus though.

PuFF

Well thought

Correct me if you think I'm off track here, but, wouldn't it make sense for each participant to reply to the thread/new thread with a list of hones and the razor he will be using for the trial? Then after each test hone he could edit his post with his findings. This I am sure would make the reading easier and eventual corralation of the findings easier too.

PuFF

I've got a Dovo that I can't keep sharp for anything. I feel it must not like my Norton to Chinese waterstone method as all my other rotation razors get, and stay bbs sharp with that. In fact, I've given up on the Chromium bench hone treatment because the bbs feeling doesn't stay as long with each razor like just the plain old Chinese waterstone gives. Anyway, I'm going to try sharpening it (Dovo) on my NOS Edlis sometime soon. I'm up for the Guinea Pig thing. I guess what I'm saying is I only have the one barber, and all I can do is judge against the Norton-Chinese stone. Another fly in the ointment-what are guys planning on? Dry, lather, a combination of both, etc.?

I think your own post would be OK if some one would take the results, Edit a summation, and put them in the library for quick access.