Kamisori honing question

I recently got a used kamisori.

When I received it I found some hone marks on it. Not knowing if this may be from the original honing I asked the seller if it had been honed and if so, how it had been honed.
Meanwhile I looked at the edge under the microscope and found it in a really good shape but - and that did bother me a bit - both sides more or less equal - like on a western razor.

I'm no kamisori-expert (yet) but, according to my reading and Glen's (aka gssixgun) video (love that Glen, thanks), front and back should be honed differently which, I assume, then results in a different geometry of the edge.

Then the seller answered it had been honed by a professional and gave me the address. I called that company today and spoke to the guy who does the honing. Of course he could not remember this special razor, but I also had the feeling that talking about a japanese kamisori did not ring any bell like "ah, when we get those we do this and that". it was more like "... yeah, like any razor.. I sharpen them the way I get them except when the customer wants something different".

So the call more or less confirmed my fear that my kamisori has been honed like a western razor.

What now? Is this bad, truely bad? Do something, return it (if I can)? leave it?

As I said before, the Edge itself is done very nice and the kamisori shaves well (don't know if it shaves like a kamisori should shave, but it shaves well)

Thanks for any advice

Frank

can you show some pics?
If the razor shaves well that is all that matters from now on you are only maintaining the edge if there are no chips. On a finisher you can do even count for touch ups, or you can do 7:3 or 5:1 it will all work. I prefer 1:1 because I hate counting.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

can you show some pics?
If the razor shaves well that is all that matters from now on you are only maintaining the edge if there are no chips. On a finisher you can do even count for touch ups, or you can do 7:3 or 5:1 it will all work. I prefer 1:1 because I hate counting.

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Yes, though it was really difficult to get proper pictures. The surface on the omote is almost scratch-free. no handles for reflections

The omote looks like this:

Attachment 133760


just a few tiny tiny tiny chips... or better imperfections along the edge
Attachment 133761

smoooth with a little less magnification
Attachment 133762


And the ura:

Attachment 133764

Attachment 133765

Attachment 133766

Attachment 133767

Need some pics :D
The folks with experience here, not me, could probably give sound advice on how to maintain it after seeing the edge from each side of your razor

Kamisori, are capable of extreme sharpness because of their asymmetrical grind, it really is that simple...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Kamisori, are capable of extreme sharpness because of their asymmetrical grind, it really is that simple...

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That's what I thought. Mine is sharp, shaves nice, but I would say it is only as nice as one of my other razors.

So is this now a worthless piece of metal?

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Originally Posted by DDTech

So is this now a worthless piece of metal?

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Noooooooo Just in the future honing sessions start moving it back toward a Asymmetrical edge, I would NOT advise doing it all in one session either,,

It can be slowly used and adjusted, I often do the same with razors that come to me with the slight beginnings of a frown, I don't get drastic I simply hone toward a smile and explain that to the owners, the razors are perfectly fine and after a couple of honing cycles the tendency moves toward a smile...

If I were you I would do the same, over the next couple of honing cycles stay on the 7:1 ratio all the way through the honing, until the final finisher and do 3:1 on that until the last 5 laps at 1:1 for smoothness...

You could also do a variable 10:1 - 7:1 - 5:1 - 3:1 - 1:1 those work but do get a bit count intensive :(

Kamisori edges are basically just a Chisel, except for the backside honing for smoothness :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Noooooooo Just in the future honing sessions start moving it back toward a Asymmetrical edge, I would NOT advise doing it all in one session either....

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puuuhhh.... You saved my day. Unfortunately I can only click on "Thanks" once. So I have to add three more here Thanks's here THANKS THANKS THANKS ... and one more THANKS

I'll be greateful for counting, if I can keep the Kamisori. The non-drastic-approach also suits me very well. I would not like to loose a lot of metal.
If I hone it once a year, it should be fine in seven or eight years :D

As You recommended starting with around 8k and my currently finest is a 12k naniwa. I just would have those two. Enough?

I Guess I will prefer the constant higher ratio not for less counting but to get away from the current 1:1 ratio.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Kamisori edges are basically a Chisel except for the backside honing for smoothness

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But the backside is with the edge (spine first) like I would strop, correct?; just to remove the burr.

Kind regards with the utmost respect

Yours

Frank

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Originally Posted by DDTech

But the backside is with the edge (spine first) like I would strop, correct?; just to remove the burr.

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You have to understand that those Vids are designed to be the basics to get a solid foundation and a shave ready edge, if you listen close I do talk about "Tricks" in some of them..

I use about 5 1:1 normal edge leading honing laps on my Nakayama with dry slurry at the very end, they are sooooo light it probably does very little but I try and squeak out the most I can for smoothness..

Those last 5 or so strokes are all about YMMV, the finish is designed for your face, so you are going to have to mess with it..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You have to understand that those Vids are designed to be the basics to get a solid foundation and a shave ready edge, if you listen close I do talk about "Tricks" in some of them..

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Yes, I got that, thanks. I think, I'll do a couple more shaves leaving it untouched until the edge could benefit from a touch up.
Then I'll try to get familiar with her and offer a careful bit of 7:1 on my 8k and 3:1 and final 1:1 on the 12k. Hopefully she'll start to remember then...

Did some reading and (I think that I) understood the video, but actually getting hands on it for the first time is a different story. Thanks

Frank

I was hoping for pics of the whole blade to see the overall condition.
For me pics of the bevels are not telling the whole story, seeing the hone wear on each side tells more about the condition of the razor IMO.
The razor you have is Iwasaki kamisori by the way, they are honed 1:1 as you can see here done by the maker of the razors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfhh1PSnfxg

Stefan,

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I was hoping for pics of the whole blade to see the overall condition. For me pics of the bevels are not telling the whole story, seeing the hone wear on each side tells more about the condition of the razor IMO.

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sorry, I did not get that. No I currently have not pictures of the blade. There is a bit of honemarks but not much. Just so, that You see they are there. They are not spreading over the whole length as they would on a western razor but a more concentrated lengthly spot towards the tip. But I can take pictures.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

The razor you have is Iwasaki kamisori by the way, they are honed 1:1 as you can see here done by the maker of the razors.

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Yes, it's an Iwasaki and I had seen the video a few months ago. Because of this video I had the idea that the kamisori might very well have some marks even when new. However I did neither realize a) the connection between this and my razor and b) the 1:1 ratio. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I still don't trust my luck, but that could be more than good news.

... looking closely at the video, I see he's doing a good x-stroke on the omote followed by a very very careful and short one on the ura, which is almost going as far to the side as forward.
Still async, but not as much as I thought.

I definitely will have to talk to her and ask how she likes to be treated.

Thanks

Frank

I am going to take a second and get very very technical here about the Vid above..

Watch carefully first at the Circles, note that the Circles done on the Bevel side (No-Stamps) are done into the edge to create more cutting power, now watch carefully after the flip, (Stamped side) the Circles now are done lighter and away from the edge..

Now watch very carefully at the finishing strokes, note the difference in technique and pressure he is using between each side..

I only speak "Dojo Japanese" so I have no clue whether he is explaining that or not

The "Trick" to honing Kamisori regardless of the techniques used, always comes down to the shifting of pressure between the two sides, and between the edge and the spine...

You can practice that, or you can hone them western style and shave them that way too, they are after all your razors and you are shaving your face so that choice is always yours...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

... Watch carefully first at the Circles, note that the Circles done on the Bevel side (No-Stamps) are done into the edge to create more cutting power, now watch carefully after the flip, (Stamped side) the Circles now are done lighter and away from the edge.. Now watch very carefully at the finishing strokes, note the difference in technique and pressure he is using between each side..

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That's what I found too. In this video of two minutes something he is using so many different techniques. Each motion has a meaning and is done deliberately, learned and practiced over years or even decades.

I think what he is doing is just his own personal variation on standard kamisori Honing. No real mystery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am going to take a second and get very very technical here about the Vid above..

Watch carefully first at the Circles, note that the Circles done on the Bevel side (No-Stamps) are done into the edge to create more cutting power, now watch carefully after the flip, (Stamped side) the Circles now are done lighter and away from the edge..

Now watch very carefully at the finishing strokes, note the difference in technique and pressure he is using between each side..

I only speak "Dojo Japanese" so I have no clue whether he is explaining that or not

The "Trick" to honing Kamisori regardless of the techniques used, always comes down to the shifting of pressure between the two sides, and between the edge and the spine...

You can practice that, or you can hone them western style and shave them that way too, they are after all your razors and you are shaving your face so that choice is always yours...

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Important points Glen brings up here. It may seem semantic to some but pressure & duration on the stone do not really translate to a 1:1 ratio.
As always with kataba (single bevel) tools the ura or back always gets less honing.

It's extremely unlikely that the razor is ruined or that the initial honing has made any ill effect.

Since you're technically minded basically the reason to hone with more strokes (and/or more pressure) on the less hollow side is that due to the grind difference there would be more metal to remove because of the (increasingly) wider bevel (only because of the grind asymmetry).
If you don't do this, then you'll slowly be moving the geometry of the razor by eating more steel from the more hollow side.

A single honing (without abuse) should cause virtually no difference in the geometry. Even if you remove a 1/64" steel from the razor's width by honing only on one side (ignoring the burr issue), the change of angle is going to be about 1 degree instead of 0.5 degree that you would have if you hone ideally on both side and perfectly preserving the original geometry.

When the razor is new the difference between the two sides is at it's smallest. So, I don't think you should worry much about it.

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Originally Posted by gugi

It's extremely unlikely that the razor is ruined or that the initial honing has made any ill effect.

Since you're technically minded basically the reason to hone with more strokes (and/or more pressure) on the less hollow side is that due to the grind difference there would be more metal to remove because of the (increasingly) wider bevel (only because of the grind asymmetry).
If you don't do this, then you'll slowly be moving the geometry of the razor by eating more steel from the more hollow side.

A single honing (without abuse) should cause virtually no difference in the geometry. Even if you remove a 1/64" steel from the razor's width by honing only on one side (ignoring the burr issue), the change of angle is going to be about 1 degree instead of 0.5 degree that you would have if you hone ideally on both side and perfectly preserving the original geometry.

When the razor is new the difference between the two sides is at it's smallest. So, I don't think you should worry much about it.

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Good to read Your comments. So the situation is not perfect, but not hopeless either. I really fell in love with her and it would be really sad.

Despite the imperfections (I'm not perfect either) she is a wonderful razor. We met this morning and after basicly a single pass followed by some water shave for fine tuning, I left her with a wonderful shave. I personally don't like to use the word BBS as it is one of those not clearly defined terms that people are obsessed by, like the HHT, but I now sit in the office and keep touching my face (which know, I should not do).

It occured to me - but that actually is another topic - that there sometimes seems to be a bit of pulling, not the edge pulling beard, but the razor's surface stucking on skin. This seems to happen, when I hold the razor (more) flat and the surface, due to the geometry and the curved skin, also touches the skin. I'm used to hollow razors, but I guess a full wedge would behave similar.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Important points Glen brings up here. It may seem semantic to some but pressure & duration on the stone do not really translate to a 1:1 ratio.
As always with kataba (single bevel) tools the ura or back always gets less honing.

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No, it's not semantic at all. When playing piano, the way how You touch, hold and leave the keys makes a huge difference for the tone, although from a mechanical point of view this does not seem to make a difference at all.

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Originally Posted by DDTech

It occured to me - but that actually is another topic - that there sometimes seems to be a bit of pulling, not the edge pulling beard, but the razor's surface stucking on skin. This seems to happen, when I hold the razor (more) flat and the surface, due to the geometry and the curved skin, also touches the skin. I'm used to hollow razors, but I guess a full wedge would behave similar.

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Maybe change the consistency of your lather slightly or raise the angle just enough.