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So I have been looking to get some nicer kitchen knives lately and am looking more towards some japanese steel knives. Some of the descriptions on some of these knives are mentioning how the "complex grinds on this knife are really great". What would they mean by that. I am not really familiar with knives too much.
I don't know about complex grinds, but I live in Japan, and I own some very nice, inexpensive "rustic" stye knives I purchased at a large Japanese "big box" store. All made in Japan of course, and they come in varying grades of finish and appearance, I prefer the simple, high carbon steel type. There is a shape of knife for every purpose here. One blade shape for cutting noodles, one for cutting broccoli/cauliflower, one for slicing meat, another for sashimi, etc etc. I have never paid over $50 for one, and I did buy one which seems not too useful, more like a machete.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosperryan
If you could give an example I may be able to help further but most makers have there own particular geometry for their kitchen knives and the varieties are endless!Quote:
Originally Posted by cosperryan
The best grind in my experience is a knife that is very thin immediately behind the edge but still has some heft at the spine. I also prefer a slightly convex grind (think axe but much thinner) as food is less likely to stick to the blade than on a flat ground knife.
Hope this helps a little :)
The grind looks like this:
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4e7ea701.jpg
pretty interesting to sharpen on stones as well.
That type of grind is used on traditional knives, gyoto and standard double bevel knives use standard symmetric grind.
This is the exact knife that I am curious about. It is a funayaki. I am guessing that it is a double bevel as it says its from the Tosa Region. So if it is double bevel then what is the complex grind? I know about the single bevel knives and they're interesting grinds and was looking at a couple of single bevel funayakis as well.
Edit: Forgot to add the link.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tskakufu16.html
The description says it is a single bevel knife, so it should have the above posted grind geometry.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosperryan
Those grinds are tricky to sharpen keep that in mind if you are new to single bevel Japanese knives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
"In the Tosa region it became common to give the knives a double bevel and use them as a gyuto would be used. As Kajiwara-san resides in Tosa, his rendition of the funayaki follows in the Tosa tradition"
That right there makes me think it is a double bevel.
You are correct, it is symmetric, then I am not sure what they mean by complex grind. May be send them a message and ask. The way they describe the knife is confusing IMO. Sounds like one has to know the knife making history of all those regions to figure out what the description means.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosperryan
Hmmm, impossible to say for sure but my guess would be the forge finished area is flat and the primary bevel (polished area) has a convex grind. Not that 'complex' really but looks like it could be a nice workhorse :)
Exactly what I was thinking. I don't see how complex it would be. It really threw me for a loop. I was starting to think that maybe each bevel is maybe at a different degree :shrug: but I really have no idea. I have a set of wannabe japanese sushi knives. They are made by Mundial. They don't have the urasaki or a true shingoi and the finish is terrible but I got them as a gift and they are better then all my other knives albeit with some modifications to the angles.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikew
Even on a Western style knife like a gyuto, you can have sections of the blade that are ground flat and parallel, "trapezoid" flat like a wedge or standard flat knife grind, hollow and convex all in a space no more than 2 inches wide. :o
I do all my cutting with a cheapo cleaver from WallyWorld. Everything from busting up an onion to chopping veggies to cutting through chicken bones. You don't need a range of knives, the cleaver does it all, from finesse work to heavy muscle work.
The same could be said for a cheap disposable plastic razor yet here we are. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayne1963
With the single bevel knives, a lot of them have a tiny secondary bevel on the "flat' side. Also, the convex "transition" can sometimes be the entire blade rode, albeit a VERY shallow convex. Likewise, some double bevel "western" style knives like gyutos, sujihikis and petty can have varying asymmetrical grinds right down at the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Which side is the "flat" side?Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM61
From your post I take it you have sharpened knives with that geometry, and have experience with a lot of Japanese kitchen knives?
You must then know that there is no flat side on a traditional knife. Western style knives are symmetrical with exception of Aritsugo gyutos which are intentionally ground asymmetric (back side almost flat). The asymmetry is done post purchase by people that think thin knife cuts better and having no clue how food release works and that a lot of smiths do not know how to grind a proper cutting knife.
Sorry, The "urasuki" side on those knives that actually have the hollow ground into them. As for the "asymmetry" I was talking about stuff like a 60/40. etc primary bevel. The "complex grinds" that I have done are what some would call an "S" grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
There should not be micro bevel on the ura side, that defeats the purpose of the grind, same reason we do not put micro bevels on the ura side of Kamisori. The Omote side should have no microbevel as well, but many put one to increase the edge longevity, however the edge fails fast because of lack of cutting technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM61
The knifes usually come 50/50 and most of the time not even sharpened to potential, the smiths in Japan believe that one should put their own edge on their knives to tune them up to one's preferences. As for the asymmetry, I think it is a fad people like to think that that improves cutting, just like people used to think thinned blades are bestter cutters. Ever since Kato was introduced in America, it became apparent that geometry and grind matter a lot more than how thin a blade is. All those are related to food release, and that plays into the cutting action. So IMHO 50/50 is just fine if the knife is made correctly.Quote:
As for the "asymmetry" I was talking about stuff like a 60/40. etc primary bevel.
True. I am going by what the hardcore looneys do over oaths side of the pond. :p My understanding is that Shigefusas are not exactly know for being thin whippy "lasers". You say USED to think that thinning behind the edgewas the ticket? When did they stop doing that over here? LOL As for the "factory" edge, in many cases is that an issue of economy in that a maker can't really afford to spend a couple hours putting a highly polished final edge on knives if he expects to make enough to sell? I know that you can pay extra for retailers like JCK to put a "proper" edge on your knife before shipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
what do they do, got any sources to educate us?Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM61
no they are not but they are also not that great cutters without some tinkering.Quote:
My understanding is that Shigefusas are not exactly know for being thin whippy "lasers".
yes that was the be all end all trend 3-5 years ago. All of a sudden thin knives such as Suisin INOX Honyaki and Ikkanshi Tadatsuna became very popular because they were "very good" cutters. Then people started realizing that thinness is not the key to better handling, it is grind/geometry. Quite a few people were very surprised how a Kato can out outperform almost anything out there for such thick knife.Quote:
You say USED to think that thinning behind the edge was the ticket?
No it is just accepted that each chef/cook can put the edge they like on their knife very simple.Quote:
LOL As for the "factory" edge, in many cases is that an issue of economy in that a maker can't really afford to spend a couple hours putting a highly polished final edge on knives if he expects to make enough to sell?
Those that do not can't or do not to learn how to sharpen pay for sharpening services it is their choice/right to do w/e they want with their money.Quote:
I know that you can pay extra for retailers like JCK to put a "proper" edge on your knife before shipping.
You did not answer my question by the way, what Japanese knives have you personally handled and used, because reading on the forums is not quite the same as actually cutting something and definitely not quite like sharpening a blade, especially a traditional.
My handling of Japanese knives has been quite limited. I currently own two reasonably priced ones, the Hattori form knife suji and one of JCK's "house brand" semi stainless gytuos that were primarily bought to use as patterns. As for picking up stuff on the forums, I have made a number of wa handled western style knives out of W2, 115W8 and my own 1084/15N20 damascus that were sold. Good feedback on all and the one where I got some particularly funny comments was a 270-mm suji using the basic profile of the Hattori but with the S grind that I previously mentioned. It was declared by its food industry pro/ knife nut owner to be a "roast slaying machine" Better lucky than good, right?. So I am a neophyte but not a COMPLETE neophyte. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
It's possible the writer was referring to a blade with more than one bevel. It's also possible the term was used for marketing purposes.
You can get the multi faceted grinds even on some more reasonably priced ($200-300) double bevel Japanese knives that you can get on line. What you can get nowadays from some pretty talented US makers is "honyaki" blades at higher range kasumi prices. Of course, the top guys in the US can get the same as the top guys from Japan and oft times, the fittings on the America made knives are nicer. I might be a tad hesitant to pony up 4 figures for a knife with a pedestrian ho wood handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozarkedger